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MCHdrivesan86GN
10-16-2008, 12:24 PM
I managed to blow head gasket, it was most likely do to not having the alky reservoir topped off and I got some sloshing and got some air in the line while running the 1/4 mile. I checked the pump and it appears to be working fine. Probably some pretty potent detonations took place and the rest is history.

Since I have to replace my head gasket(s) now might be an opportune time to get some ported heads and get my intake ported. Labor cost is the same. Given my current vehicle configuration, TE44, tinman cold air kit, alky injection, 42# injectors, xp plus fuel pump and running 24# of boost would it make sense to do so?

I would think that anything to help airflow would give some performance increase and assuming that it is tuned optimally with the ported head and intake and current config, does anyone know what kind of increase in power I could expect?

Any input would be appreciated.

Keller
10-16-2008, 01:04 PM
That sounds like the ideal next step. And its exactly what (and why) "Electra" Jim did the very same upgrade to his GN not long ago.

As far as where it could take you: That somewhat depends on how well things had been tuned to begin with.

One note I would make is that doing these upgrades is far improved by adding a cam to the mix. I know that makes the complexity and expense go up quite a bit. However, the difference in airflow between doing the cam along with the ported upper end and not will make a huge difference. I'm fairly confident that every time the ported heads and intake are shown in the "recipes", they are shown with a cam added as well.

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-16-2008, 03:43 PM
Scott,

Thanks for info. This car is still my Sunday criuser, regardless though it is hard not to want to make it faster. I now have more of an appreciation for someone who suffers from addiction. Because this is addicting. My point being I understand with a different CAM, suppose it depends on the CAM, that at idle it gets really ruff if it is a CAM that is geared toward racing. Do you have any suggestion on a particular one that is still street and neighbor friendly, but still optimizes performace?

Below is the link to my faithful run. You'll figure which vehicle is mine, by the big ploom of smoke toward the finish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPJ9IjmnawE

Keller
10-16-2008, 04:20 PM
A cam on the TRs should never have enough overlap to have a lope. A very mild cam is recommended. With the change to SM oils as of 2004, many are going to roller cams ($$$) to avoid issues with rounded lobes and other damage. But that gets very expensive. With proper break in, use of new GM lifters, and ZDDP additives (or racing style oils with high zinc content), you can stick with a hydraulic cam and not have any issues.

I'd suggest something in the 206/206 arena.

PaCemkr86
10-16-2008, 05:26 PM
which headgaskets are you going to use ?

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-16-2008, 06:38 PM
I'm going to have Aggressive Performance do the work for me, due to my lack of experience and lack of time - wife and 3 kids. I'm sure if I had some guidance I could do it myself, but given what I've paid for the car and the other work I've had done I don't want to risk anything.

Anyway Bruce of Aggressive recommended that I go with Cometic gaskets. Interestingly enough he also suggested that I stick with my stock CAM and that it will serve me well enough. I did mention to him about the CAM and his recommendation was a billet something or another and the cost would be around $1.2k. I might not have heard him correctly on price, because the most expensive one listed on Aggressive is around $400.

In any event, if I should upgrade my CAM now is the time to do so I called Bruce and left a message and I'm going to double check with him on the CAM.

So maybe if I give you guys some specs on the performance I would like out of vehicle you could give me better suggestions.

Before I blew the head gasket, my best run out of the 5 that I did was 12.5 @ 106 - this is the run I blew my head gasket on. My other runs were close to the same et, but @ 113 to 114. My 60' times were horrible though. So if I launched the vehicle "correctly" I could've probably gotten down to 12.1 or 12.2. If it would've been cooler out, I may been able to drip into the high 11's. I ran it at Milan and the temperature was about 78 or so.

My wish list is to get my car into the mid 10s. Given my current configuration what would I need to do to get there? My turbo, injectors, alky kit, fuel pump are all new. I didn't want go buy new ones given these have about 1k miles on them. So I was going to leave it at that, but I blew my head gasket and labor cost is the same whether I'm just replacing the gasket or putting ported heads and intake. So my question is with the ported heads and intake, can I get there? Do I need replace the stock CAM? Obviously I need to talk to Bruce and see what he thinks, but it is also nice to get another peoples input as well.
One other requirement, I don't want my car to be loud as hell.

kenmosher
10-16-2008, 07:46 PM
Mid 10s is going to take:

More injector (60s at a minimum)
More fuel pump (double pumper at a minimum)
More turbo (probably in the TE45 range)
Good heads
Cam
Downpipe
Intercooler
and everything downstream beefed up (trans, converter, rear end, control arms, etc.


Mid 10s is a quantum leap from low 12s. You're talking about 650 HP at the crank with a full weight car. That kind of HP (and torque) is rough on everything else, so you'll break stuff you'd never thought of (been there, done that).

My experience says that mid 11s are pretty easy and the car can be pretty reliable with mostly stock stuff. The more you dip below that, the more you'll start finding the "fuses" (i.e. breaking the next weakest link).

As my car approached the upper 10s/low 11s I managed to break the ring gear/pinion on a hard launch (1.50 short time), went through several converters, my transmission almost had a zipper on it (I think that's finally a nonissue over the years with better parts and more experience), etc. etc. and finally tweaked the thrust bearing in the motor with (my theory) excessive converter pressure.

PaCemkr86
10-16-2008, 08:01 PM
i couldnt agree with Ken more.. I sold my 10 sec Ttype and kept the mid 11 sec Buick GN... for the exact reasons posted above

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-16-2008, 10:28 PM
Thanks for the input guys.

I find it very interesting the difference in opinion/information from different people. I talked to several TR owners this past weekend and most said with the stock rear end you could run into the 10s. However, it sounds as though the likelihood of things starting to break grows expontentially when you get into the high 10s and even low 11s.

I've got my order in with Aggressive, it will be ported heads, get my intake ported and I still need to talk with Bruce about the CAM. Whatever gets done, my car will be ready for a checkout the following weekend. Sounds like with these mods, I may be at the limit of where I can go with the stock rear end and most likely as far as I want to go.

Good information guys. Thanks a lot.

kenmosher
10-16-2008, 11:42 PM
You can go 10s with the stock rear, but when the car is "hitting" really hard (1.50 and better short times) it really can stress stuff. Most people by then have hardened axles, C Clip eliminators, etc.

I think mine would have held up with an aluminum cover with the bearing preload bolts. It looks like mine tweaked just enough to change the pinion to ring gear clearance and sheared off a handful of teeth.

Lemme tell you though ... it was a helluva launch! Felt like being hit from behind by a truck (and I suspect it would have been 1.4x something if it hadn't broke about 30 feet out). After that, new gears, hardened axles, etc. all went in.

Anyway, it's not trivial to run mid 10s ... there's a pretty good leap even from 11.0s to 10.50s.

Ported heads and cam will not get you there, unless the car is on a serious race diet and not full weight. Ported heads, a mild street cam, your turbo, your injectors, and your fuel system are good to about 11.50s (maybe a touch better with good air and traction). With a TA49, stretch intercooler, ported heads, a 210/205 cam, and a crisp Fall day with good traction I got kicked off the track with a series of 11.40s (no roll cage at the time). The car was well sorted out by that time, but it was normally running 11.50-60s. That was about the limit of that turbo/fuel system.

Keller
10-16-2008, 11:56 PM
I talked to several TR owners this past weekend and most said with the stock rear end you could run into the 10s. However, it sounds as though the likelihood of things starting to break grows expontentially (sic) when you get into the high 10s and even low 11s.
Very true about the costs going up when the power goes up!

While you may be able to get into the 10's with a stock rear end, I would not trust it. I have seen more broken axles, driveshafts, and even center sections at a few days of the GS Nationals than any other place I've raced. I think people push the stock stuff a little a wee bit too hard.

FWIW, doing so is not NHRA legal, either. There are specs regarding axles, C-clip eliminators, longer studs, driveshaft loops, etc. Sadly, most tracks do not tech strongly on such items.

I respect getting the most out of the stock running gear. I'm still running the stock block/heads/cam. However, I don't think its a good idea to push the driveline items where safety and/or rules become a concern. And I've put money there before I've put it into big HP. While I may not go 10's (yet?), I won't likely toss pieces on the track either. Even if I can't drive home.

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-18-2008, 01:19 PM
Ken, Phil and Scott,

Thanks again for your input. My idea of getting into the 10s was not just a number that I pulled out of the air. In my talking to others, my question was how far can I go with stock or not modifying my car to be a dragstrip car. It was into the 10s. I'm not insane or irrational, just inexperienced.

But, it sounds though that it is a lot more involved than I thought and the possibility of the car becoming a money pit also will increase.

Like I mentioned previously, my car is also a Sunday cruiser for my family and me, yea I want it to be as fast as hell, but there is a balance there.

I'm still going to go ported heads and intake and maybe next year do some additional upgrades, bigger turbo , injectors, higher stall converter and better SMIC. Where that configuration takes me, it takes me. I'll call it a day and just enjoy.

PaCemkr86
10-19-2008, 12:41 AM
that sounds like a great idea...

Our mid 11 sec GN is alot more fun to drive and more reliable then the mid 10 sec TType..

You will be able to enjoy it more and have less breakage..

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z250/pacemkr86/Picture054.jpg

see which one thats up on the jackstands.. I dont even remember what was broke at the time this pic was taken

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-20-2008, 11:45 AM
Phil,

Nice Ttype! My wife seen the photos and ask is it for sale? I said I don't think so and given the amount that my investments are down in the past couple of weeks we wouldn't be able to afford it anyway. We were looking for another 86 or 87 TR, but that was 3 or 4 weeks ago. My little side investments that I have are down about 50% at last check. So there goes that idea.

One is enough right now anyway. In addition to the performance I want it to be a nice piece eye candy as well.

If all goes well I should have my car ready to run again this next weekend. If I get any decent footage, I'll post it on the tube if anyone is interested.

PaCemkr86
10-20-2008, 12:27 PM
TType was sold a few months ago

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-20-2008, 03:32 PM
I need to pay attention to details. You mentioned that already.

Was it tough to let it go?

I know the guy I bought mine from ask that when I come to pick it up if I could just get and go? Obviously, he was not trying to be rude but was rather sad to see it go. I mean who would'n't. Like so many others, I guess he ran into tough times and needed the money. Michigan has been at the forefront of the economic downturn.

Do you have more pics of your GN posted somewhere?

Keller
10-20-2008, 04:45 PM
:nono: This is the "Engine Mechanical" section. Let's try to keep the chat focused, both to the topic and to the subject presented here.

The new direction this is going is relevant, but not to "Engine Mechanical" or "Blown Head Gasket". :winkgrin: Down the road when someone is researching for help with their head gasket problem, they might not be so interested in this other stuff.

So...no offense intended. There are other topic areas we have for this type of exchange. I think its best not to mix them in here.

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-20-2008, 05:33 PM
:nono:
So...no offense intended. There are other topic areas we have for this type of exchange. I think its best not to mix them in here.
Non Taken.

As I mentioned before, Aggressive suggested Cometic gaskets and that is what I'm going to use. I assume they are the good choice for my "application". Meaning is there a better option or are these suitable replacements. A little late to be asking, though. Nonetheless, always good to be informed.

Thanks.

kenmosher
10-20-2008, 05:59 PM
Cometics work fine .. I'm using a set right now on the latest build.

BTW, took the GN out for a short blast with the new combo ... HOLY tire smoke batman!:drive:

Forgot what a rush boost is!

Bad news is that I have to pull the valve covers (again!:madder:) because I can hear the "tap tap tap" of a rocker. Sounds like one of the adjusters backed off. At least I hope that's what it is ... I'll be really pissed if it's a bearing.

87turbobuggy
10-21-2008, 06:39 PM
To run 20 plus pounds of boost, with only the head gaskets blown, I do not see that the facts support your time. with out a extreme intercooler, along with some kind of chip, (race, ect.) air temp at the throttle body from the compressed air exiting the intercooler, is hot enought to ignite the fuel upon entry, let alone contact with the intake valve. At that kind of boost, with no higher speed stall converter, lower rear end gears, ect. You have to retard the timming 16 to 20 degeres, if you follow the recognized published information. I to have run that kind of pressures, and have had no failer.
I run a C02 inner cooler, with Liquid Propane,( not vapor): as a fuel enrichment.
I run the motor in a sand racer, The only problem I had was the forged pistons becomming bent around the rod. Looking as if I installed Hemi pistons not dished.

When it comes to racing, I only Place First.

If you are going to port, to make a stock motor, to a magical strip monster, then drive it on the street, you cannot have both. WHY, how about Federal EPA Laws. Let along a car that consumes gas by the tank full. DO as most do. Install the LT1 Mass, Translator, 1, 2, etc. Roller Cam 206 to 208, and a Larger innercooler, and back off the BOOST. Read the Turbo series at www. turbobygarrett.com

You will find at your boost, in the set up you have, and your 60, tells me that the motor, did not have enough retard, as it laided down flat, the engine RPM, could match the Flame speed, due to excessive advance of timming/Facing the Knock quality of your fuel. And remember HP reguires octane, (C8 H18): makes fuel. However, 100 octane even with coolant addtivies will not happen at 20+ of Boost inless you use a Extreme Performaces manual/Auto Boost retard.

Too be of the Best: The setup will not be like the Rest...(matt.H)

Matt

kenmosher
10-21-2008, 09:30 PM
:dunno:

Say what? My head hurts now ... might want to reread that and see if you can make it more readable?

Anyway ...

I think I get the jist, but it's pretty hard to read that.

Couple points, the exit temperature of a good turbo running somewhere in it's compressor map is going to be less than 300 degrees (probably more like 230), which is NOT hot enough to ignite fuel. Typical ignition point of gasoline is about 500 degrees.

You need load on a turbo motor to be efficient, so lower gears is not necessary, at least when coupled with a 200-4R in a turbo Regal. The key here is keeping the EGT up so the turbo is efficient. Retarded timing is a way to raise EGTs, but you actually want to have as much ignition timing as you can without detonation. On a full weight 3500+lb turbo Regal, that's usually in the 18-20 degree range at full boost. Depends on the turbo, the intercooler and the gas ... some people can get away with more.

20 psi isn't a magic number, and many of us over the years have run that with even the stock turbo (admittedly, not the best idea since the turbo is basically out of it's map with good flowing heads). With a bigger turbo, there's no problem running 24+ psi with good gas (108 octane or so). You don't need an external boost retard device, since you can easily program the chip to do so in the timing curves.

As far as not having a good mannered street car ... you CAN have your cake and eat it too with a TR. Heck, I drove my GN to the track with family, luggage and slicks in the trunk. Bolted the slicks on, ran a bunch of low 11s, and then at the end of the day, bolted up the street tires, loaded the kids and wife and went up to the mother-in-law's for Thanksgiving dinner one year. Ran street gas (just enough to get to the track (92 octane)) with the boost turned down to about 17 psi, ran 22 psi or so at the track on B32 Phillips race gas, and then filled up at the Mobil station on the way out of the track. Figured I averaged about 23 mpg (obviously not counting the track time). About a 300 mile round trip.:thumbsup:

And this was back in 1995 or so! The turbos, chips, and such are even better today!:yesnod:

So ... I *think* we're in violent agreement about some of this stuff, but I wasn't really clear on the points being made.:2c:

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-23-2008, 01:37 PM
To run 20 plus pounds of boost, with only the head gaskets blown, I do not see that the facts support your time.


First of all I think we are off topic here so please forgive me Scott.

I've owned my car a whole 5 months now, so I'm still learning.

Not exactly sure what you mean by your post, but my head gasket(s) was blown. Most likely due to the fact that I got some sloshing in my reservoir and sucked in some air with my alky pump and that is all she wrote. I didn't hear or feel anything, but I'm sure that there were some pretty potent detonations that took place.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by facts supporting such and such and quite honestly I don't care what the facts do or don't support from your perspective. If I'm misunderstanding what you are saying please forgive me, but I have no reason to lie. As far as making my car a dragstrip car, not happening. I'm just interested in making it as fast as possible without turning it into a drapstrip beast. This car is also a Sunday cruiser for my family and me, so it has to keep its street manners.

BTW, my car was tuned and modified by Aggressive Performance(www.aggressiveauto.com) the guy has 20 years of experience of working with Turbo Regals. So any question of tuning leading to a head gasket being blown is highly unlikely.

Since my head gaskets are being replaced, that is what prompted the decision to get Champion Ported Heads and Ported Intake. The guys at aggressive suggested that I just stick with my stock CAM.

My original question here should've been what are suitable replacement head gaskets and should I go with ARP bolts or studs, but unfortunately I deviated.

IL KIM
10-25-2008, 11:03 AM
Where do you live in Mi? I am using the RJC Head gaskets and have no issues, but generally under 17psi. ARP studs provide more clamp load and can be removed and reused. I would recommend both.

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-25-2008, 12:58 PM
Where do you live in Mi? I am using the RJC Head gaskets and have no issues, but generally under 17psi. ARP studs provide more clamp load and can be removed and reused. I would recommend both.

I live in the downriver area, specifically Lincoln Park.

I have already placed my order for Cometic Head Gaskets and was just going to go with ARP bolts, but a few folks said just to be sure go with the ARP Studs. Since the heads had to pulled anyway, I decided go ahead with the ported heads and intake. Unfortunately I'm far too inexperience to do any of this particular job myself. Sure I could pull it all apart, but it would probably take me 4 or 5 weekends to complete it.

Anyway, I was running 24lbs with the ported heads and intake that will have to be lowered. The car will need to be tuned again.

Wife is yelling, got to run
:yesnod:

Keller
10-25-2008, 06:32 PM
Anyway, I was running 24lbs with the ported heads and intake that will have to be lowered.
IMHO, no. Properly tuned, on alcohol, 24 PSI should be a piece of cake. That is where the TE44 will just be starting to really do its best work. And proerly installed Cometics should hold it all in fine.

MCHdrivesan86GN
10-26-2008, 12:24 AM
Scott,

Thanks for the input. I need to start a new thread, because I'm still a little fuzzy on the boost vs airflow.

Just a reminder, for anyone running alky injection make sure it is topped off before a sustained run like the quarter mile. Even though mine was close to full, I guess there was still enough room for sloshing and up in smoke she went. I know this is pretty much common sense, but it was very costly error in judgment on my part.
Even the guy working on it looked at the amount of alky in the reservoir, he is very surprise that enough sloshing took place to cause air to get sucked into the line. He said 1 in a million.

Definitely, will exercise caution now because from what I heard these head gaskets and ARP studs are not as forgiving.

Keller
10-26-2008, 01:15 PM
I know others that have had the same thing happen. Its not really that rare.