I Think I Killed my 84 SFI, No Spark.

[Rusty]

ok, to make it short as possible.
The car was running but had a bad Crank. the #1 Piston rod bearing was shot. the cam it rides on was toast. so I poped a .030 bearing in and fired it back up. well the clank was still there but the new Manifolds sounded good(I had cracks in the old ones). any how. I ordered a crank and waited weeks. finaly it arived and I Managed to drop the old crank out and install the new one,(Factory Specs with new .010 bearings)and I only had to unbolt and slide back the trany an inch or so. I only made one Boo Boo, I Crunched the Crank sensor, another $118 dollar error. I installed the new Crank sensor and tested all. NO Spark at all. this has been going on for 3 weeks now since I finished the crank and as of yet can not for the life of me get a spark. I have striped the casing and inspected the whole wireing harness and even cleaned, soldered and rewraped the whole ting. lookes great but did crap to improve the issue. Heres where the fun starts. I own a 1984 turbo 3.8 SFI Grand national, and it is like all info for my particular Year and set up is as rare to find as the parts. so far I have kept everything Factory spec, but what those specs are is the trick. my point is. it Ran before, so what did I miss or toast that has led me to this insanity... this is my daily car, and I need to get past this and start getting to work on time(LOL). any help or info would be most Apreciated. thanks

[kenmosher]

My bet is you installed the crank sensor with the reluctor in the wrong slot on the sensor.

[Keller]

Agreed. Its easy to do, and there is nothing that screams out at you that it is in the wrong position.

Thankfully, it is also easy to change. :lite: Been there, done that...

[Rusty]

first off, thanks for the fast reply.
but. believe it of not I have two sensor at moment. one of which was/is brand new, and I did manage to mount the new one. and then ripped it out and resorted back to the old one as I tried both groves. yes, another silly move. am still getting nowhere. I bought the guage tool that is avalible and have , each time set the distance as directed. and when I read though some of the articls they become confusing, such as" install in the grove clossest to the plug and goes on to also state next to Engin. which to me is two opposits.

any who...
second question, the ECM from what I have read, is located inside the car in the Passenger side. would this be inside the side wall behind Molding?
lastly, where would I take my C31 modual to be tested and can I?. off to hunt for the ECM...I think...

still twiddling with Crank sensor as well.
oh and 1 more...lol
will the engine produce spark if Cam sensor is disconnected. I think I read some where that it can run with out sensor.

(3 years with out a problem and now all this becouse I changed the crank)
makes the saying "if it ain't Broke, don't fix it" sound like a good rule of thumb

Peace out and again thanks for the input.

[Rusty]

As I was sitting here watching Nascar. I remebered something...
I see from endless harness work that one of the connectors for my sensors can in fact reach the 3 wire connector that comes of the top of my manifold. could I have not realised that in hooking up my harness the first time
(so many weeks ago),that I may have plugged one of my sensor wires into this cluster that goes to the waist gate, I think. dunno, total veg at moment, due to can't stop thinking about where I went wrong....lol

[Rusty]

ok, first, thanks to whom ever mentioned finding there ECM while changing Upolstry. yes, I'm that thick, but have found the ECM and inspected it for any sign of water Damage. due to many statments of they suposedly all leak in the right side dash area. but to my suprise, all dry as a bone and looks in great shape. though by the writing in pen on it stating it's a "84 GM Good" I take it this is not the origanal...
(had night mares all night about finding a rusted out box).
welp, 14 laps left. gotta go...

[kenmosher]

will the engine produce spark if Cam sensor is disconnected. I think I read some where that it can run with out sensor.

It will not start without the cam sensor, but if it's disconnected with the engine running, it will continue to run.

Spark is tied very closely to the crank sensor ... 8 out of 10 times if you don't have spark either the crank sensor is bad or the ignition module is dead. Since the engine was running when you tore it down, it points pretty strongly to the crank sensor and less so to the cam sensor.

[Rusty]

ok...
back to the Crank sensor I go...went.
I have closed the gap of outer grove as much as I dare..
tried a spark test again...
no spark...BUT....it turns over like it's tring to fire....
si I test spark indicator light thingy I got from Napa glows bright orange on girl friends Dodge stratus. so the test light should work on mine, right?
so why does it sound on the verge of firing???

(have resorted to babbling incoherently in the corner).

[Rusty]

ok...lets try and establish a base line...lets say for srgument that my cam sensor is in fact now working but the cam may be wrong. does this equil spark at wrong timeing or no spark at all?
also. to remove some of my confusion. when setting the cam am I suposed to turn the crank an aditional 25 degree;s beyond the 0 mark or back counter clock wise. I ask cuz my harmonic indicator reads counter clock wise from the 0 mark and goes to 20 degrees. get confused at this point. have tried both which ezplains some of my nightmare.

and I have a concern about no oil yet in motor, you would think that with all this test rotation that the oil would at least begin to draw into pump. yes I did pack it with Vasaline twice now, just to be safe. should this kick in once Engine is running and begin pumping oil then?
guess question is should I again repack the iol pump to keep it from Air locking or cross that road when I get to it. hate to fire it up just to toast it due to additional stupidity.

hell if nothing Else I gave you some interesting reading....NOT

we hell tomorrows another day I guess..
peace and thanks

[Keller]

It is extremely important that everything be in sync. That include the cam/crank timing, the cam sensor aligning with the #1 cylinder TDC, the crank sensor interrupter ring alignment with the crank, and the proper crank sensor slot with the interrupter ring with adequate gap.

Given that this is a waste-spark system, the ignition only fires three pulses NOT six. However, that means that it fires them twice as often, and one cylinder gets a spark on a non combustion (i.e. waste) stroke each time. This keeps the ignition simpler, but it is very important that everything be properly timed. Otherwise, you may find the ignition trying to fire at the wrong time, injectors trying to fire at the wrong time, etc. The proper synchronization of the cam and crank pulses is what keeps this all in check. In addition, the cam/crank relationship has to be right. Otherwise, the game is lost from the get-go.

I suggest you read the article http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/ecmsensors/camsensor_FAQ.html While it doesn't speak about the crank sensor, specifically, it does give some insight about how things all work together and how important all these things are and how much little adjustments mean. Other articles in the tech area of our web pages may help your insight as well.

I still question whether the crank sensor is aligned on the correct slot. And whether you have the cam set correctly with the crank. You might double check firing order, too.

[Keller]

ok...lets try and establish a base line...lets say for srgument that my cam sensor is in fact now working but the cam may be wrong. does this equil spark at wrong timeing or no spark at all?
Spark at wrong timing.
also. to remove some of my confusion. when setting the cam am I suposed to turn the crank an aditional 25 degree;s beyond the 0 mark or back counter clock wise. I ask cuz my harmonic indicator reads counter clock wise from the 0 mark and goes to 20 degrees. get confused at this point. have tried both which ezplains some of my nightmare.
Facing the engine, you have to turn the engine clockwise while facing the engine. That is the way the engine spins. Also, this affects injector timing more than spark timing. See http://www.ajlc.waterloo.on.ca/cgi-bin/SFgate?language=English&verbose=1&listenv=DL&application=gnttype&convert=Mail&converthl=&refinequery=&formintern=&formextern=&transquery=clockwise&_lines=&multiple=0&descriptor=local%2f%2fhome%2fhttpd%2fwais%2fwais-sources%2fgnttype|600|726|%20%20%20John%20Sp%20Re: %20RE:%20can%20sensor%20setting%20degrees%20(quest ion)|TEXT|localhost:0|%2fhome%2fhttpd%2fwais%2fwai s-sources%2fgnttype|0%20726%20%2fhome%2fhttpd%2fWWW% 2fgnttype%2f199701%2f750 which is a statement made long ago by John Spina of Casper's Electronics when we had only a mailing list.

If you have the pump packed, it should prime on first start.

[Rusty]

1633
wonder if this works...

[Rusty]

ok as you see I am using the outter grove.
it is not possible to us inner grove unless you....yes, slightly grind down the outter suport Fin so it will not rub on the ring attached to the harmonic balancer. you see, the old brack never had these fins on it so it has baffled me since.

1634

I origanaly tried with sensor ring set in between these fins, which lines up with 2nd(inner) grove. once the outter fin was gound down a tad.

ok, understand the setting of ATDC now..still wonder though why the marks on it say + when you follow it counter clock wise. that guage I would assume is for timing light marks and how you read the fine tuning and has nothing to do with being TDC.
thanks for the sight. that was pretty clear. why can;t i find info like that...lol

[Keller]

why can;t i find info like that...lol
Maybe...because you didn't start the site? :lite:

[kenmosher]

That doesn't look like the correct crank sensor for some reason. The typical bracket holds a sensor (the has the wiring plugged into it) with two grooves.

See the two grooves in the BLACK sensor head?

[Keller]

http://www.ajlc.waterloo.on.ca/cgi-bin/SFgate?language=English&verbose=1&listenv=DL&application=gnttype&convert=Mail&converthl=&refinequery=&formintern=&formextern=&transquery=slot%20and%20crank%20and%2085&_lines=&multiple=0&descriptor=local%2f%2fhome%2fhttpd%2fwais%2fwais-sources%2fgnttype|370|747|John%20Spina%20Re:%20RE: %20Still%20having%20no%20spark%2fno%20start%20prob s|TEXT|localhost:0|%2fhome%2fhttpd%2fwais%2fwais-sources%2fgnttype|0%20747%20%2fhome%2fhttpd%2fWWW% 2fgnttype%2f199810%2f2216

No grinding on the sensor should be necessary. Is it the correct sensor?

[Rusty]

well that brings up another point I guess.
you see the mounting bracket that I got(had to order replacement holder with the sensor, can't get just holder) and when I looked at it, the sensor looked the same but the mounting bracket was widder at the sensor and now has small plate attached to sensor it's self. I did a highth cheak for cam sensor position and it seamed to match up. so I figured it was a simple design change) but it has been budding me all along.
any how, have set Crank to 25 ATDC and have opened cam sensor. it looks a off all right. but due to the location of 3Ci unit mounted just above it. space to turn the sensor seams very limited. seeing as the oil pump assembly was installed before the cam sensor was droped into place I am thinking the alighment of oil gear shaft(Groved) may have led me to "Jump a grove" when installing the cam, this may have resulted in wrong location of window on sensor combined with limited ability to turn the sensor very much. this sound possible? or am I again off in the wrong direction?

[Keller]

Frankly, I can't make any sense from what you said. Partially because of the sentence structure (or lack thereof). Partially because sometimes you appear to be talking about the cam sensor, and sometimes about the crank sensor.

The cam sensor is harder to access on the 84/85 cars because of where things are located. Just about everything is harder to access. The oil pump shaft should be able to be turned freely, and is not mated to the cam until it engages with the cam sensor. So spin it however it needs to be with a long screwdriver, then push the cam sensor in. Yes, it may take several tries to get things where you want it. But hopefully you will only be doing this once.

I am still not convinced you have the right crank sensor. However, not owning a 84/85 car I can not speak from authority. As many general parts places do, they often list the wrong pieces for these cars. Pictured is a crank sensor listed for the 84/85 TR in one such parts house's online catalog that I believe is NOT the right part. And it might be exactly what you have. Is it? Can someone confirm that this is wrong, and what Ken's pictures show is correct?

Just because Autozone/Advance/O'reillys/CSK/etc. says it is so in their catalog, doesn't mean s*&%. They also list a carbed V6 ECM in their catalog as a proper part for the 86/87 TRs, but I guarantee it won't even plug in, let alone work.

[Rusty]

the first thumbnail is the one that Napa got me. but the one that came out did not even have the metal fins on it at all.
but have old holder and sensor. next to me. will get pics soon. but ...

have cam sensor out and am doing back probing.

am reading 8.89 volts when key is first turned on...and then it goes up and builds to about 9.08....
I i have found that when window area matches up with sensor the voltage rises to 9.12 volts...

???

should'nt it be droping?

[Keller]

My first thumbnail? Ken's first thumbnail?

The pics of the finned sensor are presumably NOT the correct sensor.

Yes, it should drop. If it doesn't, its either not the right sensor or not set to the right slot. Or both.

[Rusty]

the one shown in gpi.jpg 1 of your post is what napa sold me.
this is the one that came out.

1639

1640

this is why you never lock a Harmonic Balancer with a pipe.

1641

this is a warning to all silly F---ools, yeah fools is what I ment...lol

[Rusty]

ok, off to talk to NAPA for a few about this sensor for crank. see what the story is...maybe they can she some light on this sensor.
I did how ever manage to mount the old sensor in the new style holder they sent. you see. the holder no longer comes seperate and is why they sent me the whole thing. I figured it to be a retro fit....
but as I said. I have managed to mount to old one in the new holder, once I removed the metal jacket that came secured to the new sensor. the new holder is set wider and has a grove for the sensors metal jacket to slide upon instead of securing to the sensor body it's self.
My only thought was that maybe the depth was effected and sensor though looks correct may not be deep enough to sence the grove.
follow all that?
probly not....lol

[Keller]

From the info I can find, it does appear that the 84/85 and 86/87 sensor differ. The 84/85 unit is:

Standard PC11
BWD CSS9
Autozone / Duralast SU158
NAPA / Echlin ECHCSS102 (Bracket only CSB201)
GM# 12537108,
AC/Delco 25525667

And it does look like the pictures I posted.

[Rusty]

ok, NAPA has lloked and still claims the sensor that keller showed as gpi.jpk is the one the book lists. also matches to numbers provided by keller (NAPA / Echlin ECHCSS102 (Bracket only CSB201)).

mine looks like Kens photo1.jpg except my sensor has the 3 wires and connector built right on it, not a socket that harness fits into...
so in short... kellers infor on the bracket number is the type they sent me but is not the same as I have/had.

I did manage to find (in all thse print outs), a parts list with numbers that I believe came from this site ( but Dammed if I can find it ), that was/is for 1984-85 "g" Engine Emmission Controls-3.8L V6 LM9/231-9), print #4G03-011.

I also seem to have a print out for a 1984-85 "E,G" Engine ASM-3.8L V6 (LM9/231-9) turbo charged, print #4M00-002, which looks and seems like the one I need. but I can not find a part numberonly clearance specs.

any idea what the diferance between "G" and " E,G " or what the ASM stands for?
looks like prints origanated @ 1989 General Motors Service Parts Operation-buick-44W

[Rusty]

I believe in cause and effect.

I say this becouse I just went back and tested Cam again with key on and Cam sensor out, did a rotation test and again saw 7.8 volts, when cam is turned it rises to 8.0 as window passes...so with key still on. I removed cam sensor from cam.. no change to voltage, still reads 8.0 volts. place cap over sensor and voltage drops to 7.8 with window not at sensor, remove cap and voltage returns to 8.0.

(really scratching head now):lite:

[Keller]

Your engine code is an "LM9" or just a "9" as the VIN lists a "9" for engine code.

The car is a "G" body. There were "E" body cars as well. They would be the Riviera. The Riviera in 84/85 was also available with the turbo motor.

I will mention that I referenced backward from at least one of the numbers that I mentioned on the acdelco.com website and the "finned" style is shown for both 84/85 Turbo Regals and Turbo Rivs.

Know where I found it cheapest? Rock Bottom via eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Crankshaft-Position-Sensor-PC11-REGAL-RIVIERA-GRAND-NAT_W0QQitemZ120421727927QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2009 0517?IMSfp=TL0905171210001r7234

[Rusty]

the sensor shown on the ebay is what they say the book shows.and is what was sent.
I referenced about finding the G/E on one of the prints due to the drawing showed the same looking part(as far as drawings show) and the drawing I have is evidently a list of tolerances becouse it does not show a part number.
the part on ebay states the part number as 25525667 yet the drawing I found stated number to be 25525867, which according to NAPA don't exist.

so wonder what I would find if I looked for 84 riviara turbo. perhaps the motor was a switch out?
did I mention that this is a Limited Edition car...
were the parts limited eddition as well...lol
yes, I have lost it...
Vin # 1G4AK4790EH624413

[Rusty]

Aahhh. found this, which is what led me to ask strange questions
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/images/8485diagrams/engine_part1-1.jpg.
part #50 of the drawing. but with the heading on the page, I was unsure why the "E" had shown up in styles

[Keller]

the drawing I have is evidently a list of tolerances becouse it does not show a part number.
That is a list of part "group numbers".

the part on ebay states the part number as 25525667 yet the drawing I found stated number to be 25525867, which according to NAPA don't exist.

May just be a mistype.
so wonder what I would find if I looked for 84 riviara turbo. perhaps the motor was a switch out?
You'll find the same part number.
did I mention that this is a Limited Edition car...
Who cares?

Perhaps it is time to consult someone who has worked on these before. i.e. Jack Cotton at http://www.cottonsperformance.com/ may be close to you...

[Rusty]

ok, pulled the sensor to compair both

1644

and checked the height and found new sensor sits a bit lower.

1645

so, not sure if sensor is sitting deep enough into the outside grove.

well, I see that I have pissed you off as well. so thanks again for the help you did give and sorry to have wasted your time...

[Keller]

Not that you're pissing me off. Its that you have a part that isn't working, and when you put a square peg in a round hole, you can keep turning it as much as you want and it still won't fit.

My Plan B suggestion would be to buy a 86/87 sensor setup. That appear to be what you have on the motor originally to begin with. That is what is in Ken's picture. All indications are that it would slide right in and save you hours of heartache. Not to mention it is cheaper. :lite:

I'm shocked that none of the 84/85 owners have chimed in here... :ugh:

[Rusty]

(have showered and feel Human again)
sorry for the frustration I may have shown...
it's just that I can handle the stuff I can see,hell changing the Crank out was a Dream. the Bearings and reassemly including new Manifolds and Exhaust went together like cake. this thing really looked good and ready to go.
it's what I can not see that Baffels me.I have never understood Electricity and it's affects.I just can't Grasp what I can not see.
any how. I have read over some of what I posted and see (lol) a few errors.
before I tore out the sensor (to see if it sat at the same depth as the old mount did as well as to get photo's), I was getting Voltage readings, probing the Cam sensor out of the car, that read 0.77 Volts and when I rotate the cam it rises to 0.80 Volts at the window.
I take it that this Voltage is incorrect and should be completely different.
all my Fuses under the Dash have been tested and returned. all Fussable links were tested. while having the Harness appart. I resoldered and checked all connections. so whys my meter not finding the Voltage at 7 Volts seems to be the question. I think...
and just simple question of the 3CI module. does it require the base to have a good ground? becouse many tests I did while it was not bolted up. and being mounted on studs, how important it it for base to be grounded.
Thanks

[kenmosher]

The module grounds thru the harness (although it is a good idea to also ground the base of the module as good practice ... cuts down on odd artifacts at higher boost/RPM).

Basically ... it sure looks like the wrong sensor, which is more than likely your problem. Get an 86/87 sensor (which will look like what came out of the car originally), install it and I'd give you even odds that your problems are solved.

If not, at least you're one step further down the troubleshooting chain and you can return or resell the 86/87 sensor. Keep it simple ... like Scott so eloquently pointed out if you don't have the right parts, you will never get the square peg in the round hole.

[Rusty]

I am looking for engine harness wiring Diagram for 1984.
I believe the harness has crossed wires.
I believe some errors were created to my Harnessby possibly using an 86 set of prints. I seem to only be able to find 86 prints
not having any luck with Haynes repair Manual nor Chilton's

:tank:

[Keller]

'86 diagrams won't cut it. Nor will Haynes or Chiltons. You need a real '84 GM manual that has solid factory info.

Hopefully someone with one can chime in and help you out. Such manuals pop up on eBay from time to time. Never hurts to put a "wanted" at in our For Sale / Wanted area...