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PhillyTurboSix
01-28-2010, 11:20 PM
Tearing apart my 86 GN and I'm using a machine shop that has done several of the turbo Buick blocks over time but I want to make sure he is clear on how these engines are not put together like a chebby 350. I printed out the torque specs for everything off the site here and he matched them up with his and all good. I printed out the page with all the clearance numbers on here all looks good to him.

I want to school this guy well on the turbo Buick blocks and rebuilding them as much as I can with making them a better block and doing the best possible rebuild. One question I had was about the oil passages thru the block. He said he just cleans them out well but is there something else? Any other tips and or tricks I can alert my machine shop about when building one of these engines? I'm going with a stock rebuild. TRW pistons, hyd cam, and maybe some Teflon coated cam, main, and rod bearings. Just want to make sure I'm covering all my bases with this guy.. Anything else??

Keller
01-28-2010, 11:35 PM
I think the big things that shops need to be kept aware of are:

- How tight Buick motors need to be. They are very tight compared to Chevy engines, and they are supposed to be. Looser is not better.

- The oil pump setup is critical to motor longevity. A high pressure from the pump is not necessarily "better". If you are concerned they might botch it, consider getting a cover and pump already assembled from TA. A little pricey, but no worries then.

- Using GM lifters may help your cam last. I'd suggest using them if at all possible. Soak them in oil 24 hours before installing them. Due to use of a hydraulic cam, be sure to do the break in procedure once in the car.

PhillyTurboSix
01-29-2010, 12:06 AM
I've been doing some research and lots of reading. I want to make sure it's right. With a stock build, stock turbo, and stock wastegate I want this thing to last a long time.

I did pick up one of those front covers by Earl Brown. So it's a new GM front cover blueprinted and cleaned up with whatever pump he uses. So I'm hoping to cover all my oil pump issues.

another question is the front of the block where the cam gear walks into the block. How do you measure that for wear and how can you tell if there is an issue there? I see a lot of blocks with wear there but mine looks fine. Looks like the cam walked into the front cover more then anything.

Here is a pic of the cover I took off...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4311980712_ca3b56295e_b.jpg

Is that normal? Bad? I'm using the cover over so I'm not worried but just curious. This engine had about 80K original miles on it. Unopened. Looks like a cam lobe went out #3 I think and then that lead to some main bearings getting wiped out as well.

Here is the front of the block....

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4311979886_0f44ec62ca_b.jpg

Close up...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/4311242421_d063b546cb_b.jpg

Keller
01-29-2010, 01:31 AM
As far as where the cam nose/gear contacts the front cover, the solution there (with a hydraulic cam) is to use a spring loaded roller cam button, such as those used in the FWD V6 cars. The GM part number is in the parts list on this site. Can't guarantee it is still available because GM is cutting the parts list back to an 8 year max for many parts. However, I do believe there is a Cloyes equivalent. And probably other makers as well.

PhillyTurboSix
01-29-2010, 09:38 AM
Looks like it's discontinued from GM but I found it on a part locator for 20 bucks. :winkgrin:

kenmosher
01-29-2010, 01:34 PM
You can also epoxy a small steel disk/washer in the wear "dish" and then use the roller cam button.

PhillyTurboSix
01-29-2010, 08:19 PM
This engine builder uses Melling cams. Any input on those? Good? Bad? You know how it is with cams and these cars! Seems the parts locater was out of that spring loaded roller cam button :(

Also for Pistons.. JE or TRW forged?

Ts86ttype
01-29-2010, 08:48 PM
Can't tell you much about the Melling cam, but I did see the cam button at Fullthrottle speed sight for about 16.00 plus shipping... Tom G.

Keller
01-29-2010, 11:03 PM
Melling is well known for their oil pumps. Everything I can find regarding their cams seem to pan them. Why not stick with known brands for the Buicks?

Chances are the Full Throttle cam button is a Cloyes part. Pretty sure Mike Licht was the one that gave the part # here several years ago. Have one on the shelf somewhere... :idea:

PhillyTurboSix
01-30-2010, 08:57 AM
Can't tell you much about the Melling cam, but I did see the cam button at Fullthrottle speed sight for about 16.00 plus shipping... Tom G.

Thanks for the info! Telling my builder about them now to see if he can locate one or I'll hit up FT.

Melling is well known for their oil pumps. Everything I can find regarding their cams seem to pan them. Why not stick with known brands for the Buicks?

Chances are the Full Throttle cam button is a Cloyes part. Pretty sure Mike Licht was the one that gave the part # here several years ago. Have one on the shelf somewhere... :idea:

I did hear how good Melling oil pumps are from a few people. I asked him to get me pricing on a Comp cam. I'm trying to be a nice customer to my engine builder and let him order all the parts and make a few dollars on them. So far all his prices are in range. You know how it is when you go to an engine builder with all your own parts. Something fails and they say.. well you got the parts! So being a good customer I'm trying to work with him with all the parts as much as I can :)

Thanks for the input. I'm hoping to do a little more research and pull the trigger Monday to have him start.

Also....

What do you guys think about having a align bore done? I'm not going to do any billet caps. I figure it's going to be a stock build with stock turbo but I am going with another crank due to the damage on mine. I picked up a std/std crank and rods from a low mile GN. Because I'm changing the crank do I need an align bore? It's an extra $450 bucks for the machine work plus if I go there might as well drop in a few billet caps but in my overall budget for this project it's going to send me over the top. What do you think?

Thanks again for the input!

kenmosher
01-30-2010, 10:24 AM
Cam, stick with a known one ... have your guy talk to one of above Buick specialists and order through them. Many have worked with Comp, Erson, etc. and have specialized grinds for our applications. I think you'll be disappointed with a typical catalog cam.

Another key thing ... GET THE RIGHT SPRINGS and don't scrimp on lifters. GM lifters are the best out there if you can get them. Break in is also critical.

As far the align bore, since you have a new crank and such go ahead a put the extra bucks into the steel mains if you're going that far. If you decide not to, it'll probably be OK just to do an align HONE to make sure everything is squared up. These are the types of things that can make a big difference in reliability down the road. The better the block is squared and trued (decks, mains, mating surfaces, etc) the less possibility of premature wear or weak points later on. With your new crank, I'd have a complete balance job on the rotating assembly too.

PhillyTurboSix
01-30-2010, 10:42 AM
Cam, stick with a known one ... have your guy talk to one of above Buick specialists and order through them. Many have worked with Comp, Erson, etc. and have specialized grinds for our applications. I think you'll be disappointed with a typical catalog cam.

Another key thing ... GET THE RIGHT SPRINGS and don't scrimp on lifters. GM lifters are the best out there if you can get them. Break in is also critical.

As far the align bore, since you have a new crank and such go ahead a put the extra bucks into the steel mains if you're going that far. If you decide not to, it'll probably be OK just to do an align HONE to make sure everything is squared up. These are the types of things that can make a big difference in reliability down the road. The better the block is squared and trued (decks, mains, mating surfaces, etc) the less possibility of premature wear or weak points later on. With your new crank, I'd have a complete balance job on the rotating assembly too.

I just e-mailed him about getting me a Comp or Erson cam. I would guess he would also go with Comp lifters if he got the Comp cam kit? Are those good? Or should I just order the lifters from GM?

As far as the springs. 100lb?

I'll have to ask him about that align hone. Being it's a stock rebuild I think the align hone with billet mains would be a touch much. I "may" bolt on a bigger turbo but even if I did I would never go faster then 11.5 with it. I'm more street/show then anything with my cars.

I'm going to put that ZDDP break in lube on everything. Good for break in? I didn't ask him what break in oil he uses anything better then the rest? I'm also going to put the ZDDP in the oil as well. Trying to keep this thing fed with plenty of zinc!

Thanks again for the input. I want to do this once and have a nice strong running turbo Buick for many years to come without spending 10K for a rebuild! Nothing like doing your own homework with the Buick people! :)

kenmosher
01-30-2010, 10:51 AM
Personally, I'd go with GM lifters ... Comps MIGHT be OK, but the GMs are definitely the best quality (or at least used to be). Laser cut, more precise tolerances and quieter, in my experience.

With the springs, see what the cam recommends ... based on that, go with the appropriate seat pressure and over the nose pressure. Again, don't just go with a cam out of the catalog ... be sure it's for a TURBO Buick. No need to compromise when you have it this far apart, IMHO.

During break in, be sure to have lots of moly smeared on the lobes and to do the proper 2000-2500 RPM break in procedure (DON'T let it just idle ... that's actually very hard on the lobes).

Depending on how familiar your builder is with Buicks, this all may be old hat, but from what you have said so far he doesn't sound like a Buick specialist.

PhillyTurboSix
01-30-2010, 01:00 PM
Thanks again for the input! This engine builder has done a dozen or so turbo Buick engines and the guys are out there beating them to death. So far so good. Most guys just had either machine work done or short block. I'm letting him to a long block for me. I'm trying to make sure he don't miss anything. He wants the work and is willing to listen and take input. He is also researching everything I make him aware of so that's good. A strong stock rebuild is what I want to shoot for. I know most say stay away from hyd cams but I might put 1000 miles on my cars a year and I change the oil at least twice a year using ZDDP or anything with a lot of zinc in it. I would say 80% of the guys in this area would want a build like this. I think I'm just about there just have to nail the cam and lifters down.

PhillyTurboSix
02-02-2010, 07:43 PM
Still tweaking this build! :) Head bolts. I'm trying to keep it all stock looking. Should I use the ARP head bolts or just get new GM ones? If I do get new GM ones what one do you use? I see a "long" and "short" head bolt on the list? Any idea?

I'm going to order GM lifters for sure!

kenmosher
02-02-2010, 07:49 PM
Nobody will see the head bolts, so if you want to go bolts, either will work. Just remember that the stockers are Torque To Yield (TTY) and can't be reused. You can also consider using studs if you want a bit more clamping force (for future higher boost). TTYs are fine (as are ARPs) if you stay around 20 psi max boost or so. Head gaskets are also a consideration ... stocks? Victors? Cometics?

PhillyTurboSix
02-02-2010, 08:16 PM
Cool thanks I'll just use ARP head bolts then. For gaskets I picked up a complete OEM factory Gasket set. So I have the good ole GM head gaskets. Figured I can't go wrong with them! Thanks for the input! :six:

PhillyTurboSix
02-05-2010, 10:14 PM
Ok just about ready to push the GO button on this build. Getting numbers in line and what parts. Those GM lifters are expensive little buggers even with my GM discount but you guys say they are the way so I'm going with them.

Few more final thoughts/questions...

Being this is going to be stock turbo, stock waste gate actuator build with Walboro FP, Hotwire kit, and 009 injectors... As far as pistons. I'm wondering if I should just go with hypers at this point. The builder was going to price them for me but he told me his distributors are out of stock and didn't get me a price just to see how much they are from forged piston price. I don't have plans to modify this thing into a 10 second car ever, but do I really even need to bother with forged pistons for this build?? And if not.. then were do I shop for Hypers who may have the kit in stock. I mean after all Hypers are a step above stock and guys have taken them deep into the 10's as long as you keep them fed with fuel. So help me make up my mind there please! :)

Next is cam. This is something I'm trying to be very careful picking since I'm going hydraulic and we all know how these cars are with cams. Comp Cam part number I found ( 69-248-4 ) is currently out of stock with them. I have someone getting me a good custom grind for a Comp cam but do I just trust the Melling turbo cam he wants to use that he likes. Staying around 204/214 type cam.

As far as the springs I told him to get me a good spring and he is going to spec them with the cam like you posted. I told him about this and this is how they do it already so that was good to hear.

Going with the coated bearings for sure and other then that I think I have everything in place.

kenmosher
02-06-2010, 12:46 PM
Hypers will work fine as long as you NEVER detonate ... it's not just about the fuel, but be careful with spark advance, octane and boost . They'll save you a bit, but finding "off the shelf" parts is MUCH easier if you just go to one of the Buick specialists (instead of piecemealing stuff from unknown sources).

That cam is more aimed at N/A applications ... and would work better with a big turbo. I think you're making compromises with a stock turbo car for not much (if any) performance gain.

Try this:

http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com

or

http://www.taperformance.com/

or

http://www.cottonsperformance.com/


I'd go with something around 205/205 to 208/208 (turbo grind). All these vendors sell cams and matched springs and such. Same with the roller cam button.

Full throttle shows 0.030 over forged pistons in stock and the ring packages to go with them.

Cotton's shows Diamond forged pistons in any size.

... I guess, here's where I'd be ... go to a trusted Buick turbo specialist (and with all the above you can talk to someone who's been into these cars for many many years), get their recommendation for a nice matched package (and I'm sure you'll get pretty close to what we've been recommending). Give one of the above places (or all of them) a call and see what they can do for you in a matched combination/package. Then buy it and have your builder follow the tolerances CLOSELY and you'll have a long and happy relationship with the car.

I'd stay away from bottom line rebuilder stuff (like Melling cams and the like) or things like the spit duration cam you spec'ed above (which works better on N/A or large free flowing turbo exhaust housing) and go with a nice mild duration with about 440-450 lift (1.55 rockers). It'll go like stink, be easy on the valve train, and be reliable. Be sure to get new pushrods while you're at it (measured to keep the geometry right with any machining done to decks surfaces and the like).

For a stock(ish) rebuild, the emphasis should be on everything being set up to factory tolerances and the deck/crank/mains being perfectly square and straight. Well... for any rebuild that's true, but the emphasis should be on the clearances and such being on the tight side for good street durability.

One final thing .. these cars are all about COMBINATION ... not individual parts. A carefully chosen (and optimized) combination can result in 1+1 = 3. A mismatched combination can result in 1+1= 1. An example is camshafts .. they aren't really a huge factor in stock unported (maybe with mild clean up) headed cars. However, they can be a huge detriment if the wrong cam is used (i.e. soggy bottom end, slow spool, broken valvetrain/poor reliability, etc.). The cam becomes more of a performance factor as the heads flow better, bigger valves, the turbo is bigger, the intercooler flows better, etc.

Keep in mind that the stock cam has been deep into the tens, so it's not the first thing we all think of to deal with.

PhillyTurboSix
02-06-2010, 10:28 PM
Thanks for all this input Ken! I appreciate it! It's just I want to have a budget stock rebuild making it stronger where I can without killing the budget for the build. I have been in contact with all those vendors and working some numbers out.

I just picked up a set of brand new stock GM lifters for 100 bucks so I was happy about that!

I guess I'm going to have to get the cam and springs from one of those vendors to play it safe. I'll ask about the hypers while I'm there but I checked some prices and it seemed they were only 100 bucks between them and forged so I think forged it is.

The builder mentioned LT1 valve springs like it was a great spring to go with. Yes? No? Or just make sure I get a matched set of springs with/for the cam I pick?

As far as the head work he is going to do a 5 angle valve job and deck and hone it all. I picked up some NOS GM valves as well for the heads. They should look like new. What do you think about the 5 angle valve job?

Trust me I know all about the combination being very important for these cars and that's why I posted here to make sure I'm not throwing stuff at this build that don't need to be and that it all flows together nice and smooth!

kenmosher
02-06-2010, 11:32 PM
LT1s work fine on the right cam ... but I'd stick with what is recommended for the cam you choose.

5 angle is nice ... (constant radius is better :yesnod:) Have him back cut the intake valves at 30 degrees or so. Really boosts the flow numbers.

Just be REAL careful not to recess the seats any. You do and all the low lift flow gains are neutralized. Sounds like you are doing a good job of researching everything ... keep it up and you'll get a nice reliable combo.

BTW, for comparison, WAAAAY back in the day, with a mild cam, home ported heads and totally stock everything else, my car went 12.0s @111-112. My biggest problem was that it the heads/cam outflowed the stock turbo. I literally wired the wastegate shut and couldn't get a steady 21 psi (it would just fall off on the big end). On a day with better air, the car probably would have squeaked out an 11 (my best run was 12.001 ...argh!)

The thing was a MONSTER down low ... it would sixty foot in the 1.5s, no problem (with a best of 1.50 before it broke the ring gear!) A lot of fun for a street car driven to the track. With today's cam grinds, turbos, injectors, etc., it's just that much easier (and even more reliable).

PhillyTurboSix
02-07-2010, 12:29 AM
Good stuff. I have pretty much copy and paste your info in my e-mails to the engine builder! While they have been around forever and done a number of these engines in the past... I'm trying to really dial him in to make a great stock budget build. Most of the guys around here are looking for that pretty much. I mean like you said this build can go way down into the 11's with a good tune.

This build will be 009 injectors, Walboro fuel pump, hot wire kit, and turbo tweak chip. Stock turbo with stock wastegate. With a stock TTA FPR. I'm trying to keep this thing to the naked eye as a bone stocker with a nice strong build. Another thing I've done being anal that I am. Every sensor is brand new NOS GM going on this car. Cam, Crank, Knock, TPS, IAC, and all the rest all brand new GM. This thing should run better then a brand new GN off the showroom floor in 87! :)

Oh and the trans is out getting some billet parts put in it and some new clutches. Just a freshen up and again going a step over stock with some billet goodies :)

kenmosher
02-07-2010, 12:16 PM
I think I'd go with an adjustable FPR (to be able to help dial in the tune). I'd also make the wastegate adjustable with $2 worth of NPT pipe coupler. That gives you some adjustability and helps to dial it in.

PhillyTurboSix
02-07-2010, 02:15 PM
I think I'd go with an adjustable FPR (to be able to help dial in the tune). I'd also make the wastegate adjustable with $2 worth of NPT pipe coupler. That gives you some adjustability and helps to dial it in.

I thought about it but I really want to keep this thing stock looking to the eye. I want someone like you to walk up to it and (other then the powder coating on everything in the factory colors) try to find the mods and what's been done to it. You know how it is when you walk up to one of these cars.. First place you look is FPR and wastegate to see how "stock" it is. :winkgrin:

That's why I went with the TTA FPR to get a little more out of it. I'm going to have a fuel pressure gage hooked to the end of the rail and under the wiper while I'm tunning it after it's all back together for sure so I guess I'll see where it's at and go from there. Eric from turbo tweak made me a really nice chip. He has a killer chip for 009 injectors and that TTA FPR. For the little time it was running before it spun everything it felt great and ran great. Pulled like a freight train.

Oh I fired off the latest info you gave me on the head work and my builder got right back to me and here is what he said....

"The 5 angle does have the 30 degree cut on the intake and exh.

And I know what he means about not recessing the seats"

Makes me happy everytime I talk to this builder that's for sure! I can't wait till spring time and getting behind the wheel and taking it for a cruise. It's gonna be worth all the while! :six:

I also got lucky on a radiator. This thing made metal so there is no way I can ever use the oil cooler again so a good friend of mine has a GN with under 30K on it never apart and he's going to sell me the rad cheap come next winter when he puts a b cool in his car. I'm going to leave the oil cooler off the engine till I get that radiator. I'm not taking any chances there!

FlyinGN
02-07-2010, 11:19 PM
you listen to Ken and Scott and you will be fine Jim.. Your car is going to be killer when its done this summer. Can't wait..:pat:

IL KIM
02-07-2010, 11:36 PM
I would recommend ARP bolts for the main bearing caps since you are getting align hone, and would recommend the ARP removable studs for the heads. These provide more clamp load. Also, as Ken mentioned, I would recommend balancing the rotating parts. Don't forget to get fefonl seals for both intake and exhaust valve stems to prevent smoke at initial start up. I had my macine shop/builder assemble the block/bearing clearances to max Rod .0018 and Maiins to .0015; tighter than spec.

It's always good to have a builder you can work with and sounds like you have found one you trust. Good luck.

Keller
02-08-2010, 01:03 AM
Some of us keep an eye out for head bolts and such regardless of what everything else looks like. :winkgrin: Regardless, the hex-head ARPs are basically a beautiful solution to the ills of using studs on cars like these. Especially with air, etc.

Don't forget head gaskets. Stock should be fine, but Cometic (properly installed) would give a great seal for high boost. If you plan to do that sort of thing...

kenmosher
02-08-2010, 10:36 AM
Regarding the valve job 30 degree back cut ... make sure he understands, the back cut is on the intake VALVE (not the head) ... it's amazing what what that did to my low lift flow numbers when we were messing around with the flow bench.

PhillyTurboSix
02-08-2010, 03:55 PM
Thanks again or the input guys!

Ken: I guess I don't need to worry about back cutting the exhaust valve? Air is just going out there anyhow right? I would think this back cutting is just for the intake valves?

This car if ever won't see 20psi of boot in it's life with me so that's why I went with factory head gasket set. I know too many guys over 20psi on stock head gaskets so for my little stocker app they should be plenty even if I turn the boost up a pinch in time :)

IL KIM: That is pretty much what I'm doing other then going with ARP head bolts. For what I'm doing I just don't think I'll need them and keeping that stock look. Like Scott said most people look for bolts or studs there before they poke around any more :winkgrin: crank, pulley, and fly wheel are going to be balanced as well. The builder only charges 200 for that so I thought it was cheap insurance to make it all flow better.

Thanks again guys for the tips. Seems the cam is on back order everywhere I try so I hit my first lump in the road. Let the fun begin! :)

kenmosher
02-08-2010, 04:00 PM
Take a look here for a quick summary of some of the experiments we did on a set of my heads...

http://gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/heads/kenporting/ken.html

This is Charlie Sikes (owner) ... he's not happy with the numbers, so he took the intake valve over to the valve facer and made a 30 degree backcut. After rerunning the numbers, we picked up a consistent 10% more flow across the board and actually a bit more in the middle lifts.
It was amazing how the back cut affected low lift and mid lift flow. We picked up almost 12 cfm in the mid lift areas! It even slightly helped high lift flow (a couple of cfm).

PhillyTurboSix
02-08-2010, 06:08 PM
Got the cam. I called Weber racing. I was told they have a killer 206/206 grind Comp cam that hundreds of hours of research went into. It's one of the best hy flat tappet street cams around. So that should be here Friday from what Steve told me. I asked about the valve springs and they said the LT1's should be fine for the cam and my engine builder has those in stock. I'm getting closer! I can't wait to get this thing done. :winkgrin:

Ken I forwarded that link to my builder! Thanks!

kenmosher
02-08-2010, 06:12 PM
Weber knows their stuff ... they've been doing this for a long time with the Ohio crew and have it all figured out.

PhillyTurboSix
02-08-2010, 06:40 PM
Weber knows their stuff ... they've been doing this for a long time with the Ohio crew and have it all figured out.

That's what I hear! I'm really glad to get this Comp grind from them. They are going to drop ship me. I think I just about have it all covered! :six:

PhillyTurboSix
02-25-2010, 01:37 AM
Ok so everything is in but the JE pistons. They should be in any day and the builder says he will have it done complete one week later.

Let's chat about the break in. I heard some really good stuff about the new Comp Cam's break in oil. Comp came out with this oil to "break in" engines and cams but I think it's something they came out with due to the oils pulling all the zinc out recently and this stuff can really be used all the time as it's 10w30. I bought a case of it... http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CC&Product_Code=1590&Category_Code= I read some good reviews on it and it's loaded with zinc so I would think for breaking in of the cam and engine this stuff should be really good.

So do I break the cam/engine in with this oil. Dump that oil after breaking in the cam and then run this oil again for 500 miles or so? Dump that and then maybe go to a good oil with ZDDP additive there on out? Or even stick with using the Comp break in oil all the time? Can't go wrong with an oil loaded with zinc right? Sound like a plan?

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/graphics/00000001/1590_600.jpg

Keller
02-25-2010, 01:11 PM
I presume that the builder will be using an assembly 'lube' on the cam to prevent wear. That, in addition to the break in oil for the actual break in process, is critical.

Now, there are a lot of different assembly lubes. So using the right one of those is important, too. The initial startup for break in is critical to the longevity of your cam. Hunting around a bit, I found this article from ZDDPlus. I realize it could be taken as an ad for their products, but I have never seen an article written with such thoroughness and good hard data.

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief12%20-%20ZDDP%20and%20Engine%20Break-in.pdf

Clearly, not all assembly lubes are created equal.

In addition, there are several high zinc content oils out there. I believe they have been discussed here before. (Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs, Valvoline VR1 Racing, etc.) Using the Comp break in oil may work fine, but there are several other choices. Not to mention adding a bottle of ZDDPlus to any oil you'd normally use. None of the choices will be "cheap", of course.

If you like to read, here are some links:
http://www.zddplus.com/
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88262
http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80715

Personally, I would either use the Brad Penn oil or the ZDDPlus in a standard or synthetic oil.

PhillyTurboSix
02-26-2010, 01:34 AM
way ahead of you Scott. ZDDP was created by Richard Clark. I've been talking to him about the break in oils and such. I gave my engine builder several packs of the ZDDP assembly lube for the cam and I gave him a bottle of ZDDP. He is going to put that on all the parts while he's assembling the engine. Then I'm going to run that Comp Cams break in oil so I should be way over the amount of zinc needed for proper break in. After I dump that I'm going to run the Comp Cams break in oil for the first 500 miles then dump that and figure out what way to go. Might take me the till the rest of the year to get 500 miles on the new engine so I'll figure it out next winter :) I may use Brad Penn as that's what I run in my 87 GN and TTA but the only thing I don't like about Brad Penn is the color. It's green so when you do an oil change the oil looks dirty right away even tho it isn't. By rule of thumb on my cars I dump the oil as soon as it changes from clean to dirty. If there is 100 miles or 3000 miles when it changes from clear it comes out.

Keller
02-26-2010, 02:20 PM
I think changing based on the number of miles or style of usage would be more sensible IMHO than based on the color, flavor, etc.

Naturally, if it smelled of fuel, or had chunks of metal in it, I would understand your cause for concern. However, it might require more than an oil change at that point.

Regardless, sounds like you're on the right path. :tup:

bmackinnon
03-05-2010, 07:45 PM
This a great thread! I didn't happen to notice the rod and main bearing clearances you/builder are shooting for... it's a touchy subject, I know... care to divulge??

PhillyTurboSix
03-06-2010, 10:14 AM
Well he's done a few dozen of these engines already so I'm not sure on the clearances. I did print him specs from this site and a few others so he can get all those numbers like http://www.merkelengines.com/engines/buick/buick_231_turbo_tech.shtml. LOTS of good information there from a guy who has been around forever as well. I'll see what he winds up with.

PhillyTurboSix
03-10-2010, 03:35 PM
Stopped in today and we are almost done. He just stopped so I could snap a few pics off. Looks like the cam is nice and loaded up with ZDDP paste! :pic:


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4422427707_51f0d15e29_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2768/4423192052_456b88fd45_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4423191566_62a38d6192_b.jpg

PhillyTurboSix
03-10-2010, 03:36 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2796/4423190952_7122d82858_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2691/4422425137_1f8967dc1d_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4013/4423189840_35a586d21a_b.jpg

PhillyTurboSix
03-10-2010, 03:37 PM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4422423843_12bdd04946_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2737/4423188618_23d365b8d5_b.jpg

kenmosher
03-10-2010, 05:09 PM
NICE!

No porting work on the heads? Looks like new valves (no tulip on the exhaust valves, for example) ... also looks like you put seals on both the intake and exhaust stems.

Nice shiny parts! :D

PhillyTurboSix
03-10-2010, 05:28 PM
The heads got some mild porting with a 5 angle valve job. 30 degree cut on the valves and those are nos valves. I got my hands on a nos set for 50 bucks :) He asked me if I wanted to see behind the valve but I didn't want him to take it apart it looked so nice already! :pic:

kenmosher
03-10-2010, 06:24 PM
Well, hate to be the one, but those aren't stock valves ... unless they have been ground down significantly.

The stock valves have a "tulip" or dished face to the combustion chamber ...

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/images/guidepics/combustion.jpg

PhillyTurboSix
03-10-2010, 06:53 PM
hmmmm good point. I didn't even check when the heads were off. I just shot the builder an e-mail about it. The valves came from someone who said they were nos GN valves. What kind of issue are we going to run into using the ones in there now?

kenmosher
03-10-2010, 07:00 PM
Shouldn't cause any problems, but it'll bump the compression slightly.

PhillyTurboSix
03-10-2010, 07:35 PM
I'm sure mine were ok just saw these were nos ones and grabbed them up. Should I have him swap them out and put my stock ones in there? Or just roll with it?

kenmosher
03-10-2010, 08:00 PM
As long as they are the right replacements, they should be fine. The only worry would be if they are cheap generics and the exhaust valve might not hold up to the head of the turbo. I think the stocker was Iconel... (a Nickel/Chrome alloy)

You'd have to have your stockers lapped into the heads to match your valve job ... which isn't a big deal. I'd ask your builder what he thinks.

PhillyTurboSix
03-10-2010, 08:33 PM
I asked him and he said that are the same size as the stock valves that were in there just no cups in the middle. I told him what you said about a little more compression and he said that's never a bad thing! :drive: I guess we'll keep em! LT1 springs. The valves came in stock GM boxes.

IL KIM
03-10-2010, 08:46 PM
Very nice. Hey if you ever wanted an engine block heater put in, in place of on of the block plugs, now would be the time. I keep my OEM heater plugged in during the winter.

PhillyTurboSix
03-10-2010, 08:56 PM
Good tip! I get pretty lucky with winter storage. I rent a few duplex's out and I keep my cars in the garages under them. So it's like a climate controlled concrete cave. All the heating pipes run thru the garage so the cars never get colder then 50 degrees all winter! I would love to have a GN with a factory block heater just because it's so rare! :)

bishir
03-11-2010, 02:01 AM
Looking good. I guess what I've learned from reading this thread is that next time you should just let Ken build it. :loll:

PhillyTurboSix
03-11-2010, 02:38 AM
yea PM me your friggin address Ken! I'm sending it all in a box to you next time! :loll: :hail:

PhillyTurboSix
03-13-2010, 01:23 AM
Well it's home sleeping well! Hopefully a few weeks it will be in the car and I'll pouring miles on it! Thanks to everyone who gave me their input esp you Ken! :)

Here is a break down...

Disassemble long block
Hot Tank block / parts
Bore and Hone block .020
Balance Rotating assembly
5 angle valve job - cut exhaust valves on 30 degree
resurface block / heads
press pistons (NEW JE Forged pistons)
re-ring pistons (JE rings)
File fit piston rings
Assembly Complete engine
Polish crank
new main bearings
new race bearings
new cam bearings (coated dura-bond)
new ARP head bolts
new ARP main studs
new Double Roller timing chain
new Brass freeze plug kit
new LT1 valve springs
new Rocker arm retainers
new oil pick up screen
new rod bearings (clevite)

I gave them these parts and they installed them...

Full GM gasket set (from NOS4GN)
Earl Brown timing cover complete
new Comp Cam 206/206 custom Weber racing grind
new GM lifters (thanks Grumpy )
new GM intake and exhaust valves
Low mile Connecting Rods (thanks Bill )
Low mile Crankshaft ( thanks again Bill )

From the time I gave them the "go" and all parts were in stock it took 2 weeks to complete this engine build. That is FAST! There are people around here with engine rebuilds going on 5 and 6 years long!

For the price and the speed you can not beat them. I stopped the build several times over parts and ideas on parts as you guys chimed in, killing time. Jeff at MAR Engines is great to work with thru all this. I wanted to make sure it was the best stock build I could do on budget. Jeff at MAR gave me a price and when I came to pick the engine up the price was the same. No hidden costs or last second changes. Jeff calls and sends out e-mails all the time the entire time it was there. No question did not go unanswered for more then an hour.

I held Jim Dunn and Ed up only because this has been the worst winter in history so it's a little hard to paint and clean up a frame in those conditions! I just ordered some Eastwood extreme frame paint in satin black. Everything is coming together as the weather is finally breaking to do this! I'm shooting to have the car at Kirban's open house. Figure that will be a nice drive to break it in!

For break-in, I picked up a case of Comp Cams 10w30 break in oil. I'm breaking it in with that and then doing the first 500 or so miles with it. It's loaded with ZDDP. I also gave MAR ZDDP assembly cam lube for the cam and he soaked all the parts in ZDDP while he was putting it together. Zinc is my middle name Can't wait to put some miles on the car. New engine and trans is should run like new!

Just to give you an idea on price. With everything in that list above including the case of oil and extra's I'm sitting at right around 4K on the dot for this build up. Not to bad for a budget rebuild! :winkgrin:

kenmosher
03-13-2010, 10:30 AM
Outstanding! Glad it's all together and at home ... of course, you "owe" us pictures of the completed car this Spring! :D

PhillyTurboSix
03-13-2010, 10:43 AM
Oh you know I will! I'm a picture whore with these cars! :yummy:

This is what it looked like right before it spun the bearings so it's going to be hard to improve on this shot! :winkgrin: Well I did clean that dirt on the brake reservoir since this shot! :winkgrin:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4268448166_cbfa919c03_b.jpg

PhillyTurboSix
03-28-2010, 04:30 PM
Just an update!

Engine and trans are in! Oil pump primed went right up to 50psi on the drill. Hoping to fire it up by Wednesday this week!

Engine bay all cleaned up and painted pretty...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4470976094_89fea92b58_b.jpg

Engine patiently waiting to go in....

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2701/4470192757_f2f53a8dd7_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2741/4470967090_bed1a524f8_b.jpg

PhillyTurboSix
03-28-2010, 04:33 PM
Final touches...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4470201397_e65139cae5_b.jpg

More pics to come!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4012/4470983720_2a10f45795_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4470202629_da6fa8d8ae_b.jpg

PhillyTurboSix
03-28-2010, 06:38 PM
For cam break in... Comp Cam manual says fire engine up and run it at 2000 to 2500 for 30 mins. You can go up and down but stay in that range. Then shut down, dump oil, and filter. I'm using that Comp Cam's engine break in oil and I'm going to run that after the break in till the first oil change. Sound good? Talk to me Ken/Scott! :)

Keller
03-28-2010, 07:54 PM
I always remember a few clicks higher in RPM (more like 3k), but that sounds right.

BTW, if you are a real purist, you don't have to use a blue bypass hose on the cooling system. Pretty sure NOS4GN has the correct part instead of the thing that Gbodyparts sells. :nono:

PhillyTurboSix
03-28-2010, 09:14 PM
lol guess I fooled you Scott on that blue hose. Guess what. That is the OEM GM stock replacement hose. Came right from the dealer. The dealer I ordered it from even said to me that's strange.. I never saw any blue silicone hoses for any GM product other then the corvette before. I ordered 4 more of them. All came blue silicone. Last I checked that hose is discontinued from GM. But that is a OEM GM replacement part! :)

Royal-T
03-28-2010, 09:41 PM
I always remember a few clicks higher in RPM (more like 3k), but that sounds right.

BTW, if you are a real purist, you don't have to use a blue bypass hose on the cooling system. Pretty sure NOS4GN has the correct part instead of the thing that Gbodyparts sells. :nono:

i thought between 2200-2500....

....looks great... i always like your attention to detail:pat:

aaron

Keller
03-29-2010, 06:43 AM
Hey, that hose will last longer.

kenmosher
03-29-2010, 09:52 AM
Exactly the way I always do it ... the theory is that it's actually easier on the lobes since the lifters have enough ramp speed to spin and not wear a groove. It's also easier on the springs and keepers, I hear ...

PhillyTurboSix
03-30-2010, 07:49 AM
Found the picture that I took when I bought all new hoses from the dealer a few years back. The blue hose just came loose.

PhillyTurboSix
04-01-2010, 09:51 PM
She is alive and it feels good to be behind the wheel again! It's like driving a new car from 1986 all over again that's for sure. The break in went well I took some video I'll have to post up next week. I'll be too busy driving it this weekend! :D It runs great feels really strong. I have my GTA rims and tires ( BFG G Force from Dunn-Rite) on it and with just quarter pedal it's barking the tires big time! Thanks Mike from Mike Transmissions! Seems it's shifting really nice all around. I can't wait to get those 21 year old Eagle GT's on it! DOH!

I put about 10psi of boost thru it so far a few times to help those rings seat and it was really smooth acceleration. Going to inspection tomorrow morning for the car and I'll give it a few more good heat cycles.

Thanks to Jim Dunn and Ed Singleton for all the work they did and my buddy Jason (Quiky One) for helping me pick most of the parts for this build and being my coach the whole way!

Special thanks to you Ken for keeping on top of this thread and helping me out all the way! Here's to many years and many miles on this new engine!
:drive:

kenmosher
04-02-2010, 12:52 PM
Keep us updated! Always nice to hear about another back on the road!
:party:

PhillyTurboSix
04-08-2010, 08:40 PM
Got about hundred and fifty miles on it so far so good. I've got 10-12 psi hot idle oil pressure and about 30 to 40 when going down the road. I have to tweak the adjustment Earl puts in his front cover to see if that will come up a little. I'm sure 10-12 hot idle oil pressure is ok but I'd like to see that a little higher. Other then that everything seems fine.

I took some pics in between dusting the pollen off. How do you guys think I did with my stock appearing engine bay? :shiny:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2801/4503980992_86bc09ff08_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2682/4503980958_4349076267_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2679/4503349199_13c02ae824_o.jpg

PhillyTurboSix
04-08-2010, 08:41 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2755/4503349165_360ffecff6_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2719/4503980824_6d9af96057_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2682/4503980800_a60d287626_o.jpg

PhillyTurboSix
04-08-2010, 08:42 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2748/4503980754_eb2184b8e3_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2677/4503348977_eb957eb566_o.jpg

IL KIM
04-09-2010, 09:46 AM
Very nice and clean. You succeeded in making it look stock. Glad to hear you are enjoying driving it around!

kenmosher
04-09-2010, 03:15 PM
That is VERY nice ... beautiful! :tup::drool:

Ts86ttype
04-09-2010, 07:05 PM
AWESOME JOB... That is something to be proud of....:tup: Tom G.

PhillyTurboSix
04-09-2010, 08:01 PM
Thanks guys for the compliments! That's just how much I love these cars and making them look like new again! Engineering so far ahead of it's time deserves to look it's best when on display for the public! I'm hoping to have the car in Bowling Green and Ohio (BPG event) this summer so if I make it and one of you guys make it make sure you come check it out in person!

PhillyTurboSix
04-09-2010, 08:05 PM
and don't worry guys I have a NOS coolant over flow bottle to go on it as well! Next year a good friend is going to sell me the radiator off his low mile GN to replace mine (he is going with a B cool for racing) now that the oil cooler tanks are full of metal from the spun bearings. So when I get the new rad in next winter I'll put the new over flow bottle on.

PhillyTurboSix
10-04-2010, 10:13 PM
Figured I would update you guys for some input. 1,200 miles on the engine now! Everything seems smooooth so far. First 500 mile oil report scared me a little bit from Blackstone. But it seems to have settled down in the 1100 mile report. I'll keep checking it every 1000 miles to be safe.

I've attached the oil reports so let me know what you think. I think he sprayed the head gaskets with cooper sealer so who knows maybe it came from there and the break in of the cam. zinc levels were nice and high on the first change. Seems to be good now. I'm using Brad Penn with half a bottle of ZDDP.

kenmosher
10-05-2010, 09:45 AM
The calcium and ZDPP are usually boosted in the oil to prevent oxidation and for anti-scuff properties (a good thing with a flat tappet cam). The calcium (usually calcium carbonate) is also a good alkaloid to neutralize acids.

The copper could also come from the sealers as well ... lots of copper in high temp RTV.

PhillyTurboSix
10-06-2010, 12:56 PM
Do you agree with the results and findings Ken as far as everything looks ok? Figure another 1000 miles I'll change it and test it again to keep an eye on it. Can't tell you how happy I was to see those numbers way down on that second oil change! I thought oh no here we go again!

kenmosher
10-06-2010, 03:18 PM
I'm no oil analysis expert (although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express :D ), but I agree with what they say. I think the first oil change was flushing out a bunch of left over stuff from sealants and assembly lube, plus you are using an oil high in ZDPP (and probably calcium carbonate as well) ... a good thing for a flat tappet camshaft.

I think you've got the right idea, keep a close eye on things and see if things continue to settle out (my guess is they will).