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View Full Version : to lock-up, or not to lock-up, that is the question.


Turbo2nr
09-06-2004, 08:16 PM
I was talking to Art Carr. He talked me into going with a non-lockup converter to go into some 10 sec runs. I have felt the difference a lock-up can make, as I have had a vigilante multi-clutch in the past. Art assured me I would go faster with a properly set up non lock up, with a closer 1:1 at the top end. He said torq multiplication would be much better with the non-lockup. Had something to do with the added space avaliable to put in larger stators?( I think that is what he said. The fins that spin in the trans fluid to pass on the motors torq.) Lock up clutch took up space that compromised the width of other parts in converter.
Anybody agree with the non-lockup theory? I have read all about the benefits of locking up during a run from many people, but this is a first I heard of a nonlock up being faster.

Thanks, Scott

Turbo2nr
09-12-2004, 08:23 AM
Come on!, one week, no reply?

Turbo2nr
09-12-2004, 05:32 PM
Keller, what is your 2c worth? Racing, lock-up, or not. I heard the top runners at the gn nationals went with a non-lock up/200r tranny. i have never been to such a big event, never had the chance to discuss this with any fast guys.

Scott Hudson :o

Keller
09-14-2004, 02:23 AM
I am not a "fast" guy nor a tranny expert. That's all a black art to me. That's why I've stayed out of it...

Its just one of those "It depends..." things. How much power do you have, and what do you want to do with it?

Lock up converters simply don't (or didn't seem to) last past a certain horsepower. That power was probably 600 or less. It used to be at much beyond that, you always looked toward an Art Carr 16930 9" non-lockup converter or something similar. The Precision Industries "Vigilante" units somewhat changed that. First, the single disc clutch...which didn't seem to last with the HIGH horsepower applications. Then the multi-disc...they seemed to be able to make them last.

I know that some or most of the 10.0 and faster guys are sticking to non-lockup converters. I'm not certain where the ET/HP breakpoint lies for lock vs. non-lock. The car I helped in the buildup of that managed to go 11.0 @ 124 was finished before the jury was out on the multidisc Vigilante. We stuck with a non-lock 9.5" as I recall. I'm convinced that car would have been an easy 10.8 or so car with a lockup converter. I can't see any way you can get a 1:1 final drive on the big end with a non lock converter that has high enough stall for a big turbo's spooling.

Turbo2nr
09-15-2004, 06:08 AM
thanks. I was thinking the same. But the tech At Art Carr's shop, and Art himself said, I would go faster with one of his non-lockups. They are more expensive than his 9/11. Go figure? I know 1:1 would be next to impossible without a clutch, but He insisted a well built converter will be close. I really do not understand the whole process going on in a trans/converter, but Art said torque multiplication will be much better in a non-lockup, as well as converter life span. It will be an expensive thing to test. So, here goes a non-lock up first. I'll let you know how it feels. I have added clutches in 4th just in case I need to use it.

Scott H.

Keller
09-15-2004, 10:22 AM
You won't...at the track, anyway. The track is simply not long enough. Unless you've put in 5.13 gears out back. :eek:

Turbo2nr
09-15-2004, 06:47 PM
I have needed 4th in my previous GN! My subaru WRX will go 130mph in the 1320'! $9,000 dogbox tranny, 30psi boost/BIG Garrett GT/ eight point cage, etc. I like speed! I was using 27" tall tires on my GN. 1" more than stock!

Scott

Keller
09-15-2004, 07:08 PM
The 11.0 T had 28" slicks, and a non-lock converter, and I don't seem to remember it needing 4th in the 1/4 while I drove it. Only ran about 25 PSI boost and was running 124 out the back end. It may be out this weekend, so we'll see what it will do with larger injectors.

You can calculate from tire size, drive ratio, revs, converter, etc. what you'll be spinning in a 1/4. 3rd is 1:1, 4th is .67:1

Turbo2nr
09-16-2004, 06:44 AM
Yes, thanks. I have a 1:1 made for my subaru, but that motor will rev to 7500rpm. I am scared to take my Buick up to 6500 rpm. I could have bought new tires, but I had already went from 26" to 27". I should have bought 28"

Scott

charged
09-25-2004, 10:59 PM
LOCKUP IT THE WAY YO GO IF YOU DRIVE THIS CAR AT ALL ON THE STREET.. IF IT GOS STRAIGHT TO THE TRACK THEN NON LOCKUP ..BECAUSE WITH OUT LOCKUP THE EGINE WILL RACE ALOT MORE AROUND TOWN ITS REALLY DOES.. :cheers:

6 GUN
10-02-2004, 12:02 AM
I have went 130 mph in drive (3 rd.) with an ART Carr 16930 and it drives great around town and on the road, rpms are approx. 250 to 300 more than a stock lock-up, that's it. PS: to fugure out rpm's at the finish line, use 93% trans eff. due to slip in the trans/non-lock-up converter. The 130 mph WE4 has OEM= block,crank,rods,rear,computer: pte front mount,gn1's,70 p-trim, 83# inj., hyd. roller with only 23#s of boost way back in 2000 the car went 130 mph, is most likely faster now. :cheers:

Keller
10-02-2004, 12:38 AM
I need to make a correction. The 11.0 car I spoke of never actually ran 124. I found some old slips and also spoke to the owner. It looks like it ran about 120. Here is one example pass:

60' - 1.569
330' - 4.535
1/8 - 7.057
MPH - 97.39
1000 - 9.248
1/4 - 11.12
MPH - 119.89

Turbo2nr
10-02-2004, 07:21 AM
I don't know why I am using 4th now?? I have a non-lock up, it feels great! ET is way better than a lock-up, My old car had al. champion heads, I now have 100%stock motor. Old car had vigilante muli-plate I locked it in 3rd. MPH was better with lock-up, BUT my new GN with non-lock up is awsome in the eighth, and at 60', about 96mph in eighth. I get a 11.3 with about 24psi, 1.60 60', and still have to use 4th! 27" tall tires, and 117 trap speed. I can't see how anyone could go 130mph with 27" tires or even 28" and still be in 3rd gear. (non-lockup) I use car for some street use, and yes I have a big tranny cooler. I don't care about miles per gallon, but it does not seem that much different. I feel like my car wants to go to 4th @ about 110mph. I will get 28" tall tires, and put in some better valve springs. Maby that will help eliminate the need for 4th. Over all, I like the non-lockup, it is faster.