Brother, can you spare a 60'?

[Keller]

Despite everything I did at the beginning of the year to start my brake system with a clean sheet of paper, I only made things worse.

Despite the larger piston US Brake calipers, fresh Bendix rotors and drums, fresh pads and shoes, plus new S-10 wheel cylinders out back, plus a braided line to the rear end (braided front lines never sealed) I just can't hold it at the line.

My recent trip to the track left me not able to hold any boost at the line, really. Never even touched the 11's. And I am not happy.

Since I did so many things at once, I'm not sure what is 'broke'.

The car seems to stop better than ever. It had good (replacement) pad thickness at all four corners before I touched it. However, the rotors and drums were original. And with 71k, they were getting along. Weren't trashed, but worn. I also went with fresh hardware and bearings.

The front has the larger piston US Brake calipers. Stock lines. Hawk Ceramic pads. Bendix rotors. Fresh hardware.

The rear has a Russell braided stainless line, Bendix S-10 (manual) large wheels cylinders, Satisfied "Metalizer" pads (all 'large' pads used), Bendix drums. Fresh hardware.

Bled the system to death. However, it appears to be down a bit on fluid now. Will check and top off.

The car stops straight with no drama or wheel locking.

The rear pads may be too hard to get good boost launches. I previously had Wearever "Silver" pads from Advanced Auto Parts, with the larger pads from two sets on the car. That setup with the S-10 cylinders locked the rears from the moment I put them on the car for the first 15-20 miles, even under light braking. Even while I was braking in those pads, I thought I would have to rip them right back off. Then the drama cleared. These new pads have never done that. However, it could be the pads, or it could be something in the hydraulic system.

Not sure what to do. I really want it all, yet I know that isn't possible. I want a car that will stop on a dime, and do a bumper-dragging launch with a footbrake leave. :loll: Uh...OK, a decent launch.

Should I put in the old pads? Put in a fresh set of 'soft' pads? (Any suggestions?) Put in the old rear line? New soft lines all around and ditch the braided lines? Forget about brake tourque and go with a trans-brake?

I need my 60's back, not to mention some consistency. I haven't even turned an 11.xx at my home track this year. I was hoping the suspension work would a step to help me, not hurt me.

[kenmosher]

I'd put some soft organic (i.e. cheap) shoes on the rear and see if that makes a difference ... step into it one part at a time.

I wonder if the new larger pistons are taking too much fluid volume?

[Phatman]

I'd put some soft organic (i.e. cheap) shoes on the rear and see if that makes a difference ... step into it one part at a time.

I wonder if the new larger pistons are taking too much fluid volume?


That's just what I was thinking....
I have basically the same problem, my son did the brake work on his GN, less the the US calipers, but with the same results. I was baffled, but while sitting in the shop looking at his handy work I thought I had found the problem, well, I did find one major problem. He had installed the rear cylinders upside down making it impossible to bleed them completely. I'm still confused and can see nothing else wrong other than the fact that he can not hold any boost with the foot brake to speak of...

Good Luck!!!!

[Keller]

I wonder if the new larger pistons are taking too much fluid volume?
FWIW, being on the front, they should not affect the rear braking due to the split of the brake system, right? Err, maybe?

AND...while I'm thinking about it...I also installed the brass proportioning valve that I've had sitting around for more than a decade and never got around to installing. This was *sort* of a recall as best I can tell. I believe it was an official recall in Canada, and just a recommendation in the US. Brass is not as pourus as iron, and therefore will not allow air transfer into the system.

P/N 25509419, short number 172-1353, group 4.690. Looked it up on acdelco.com and 2022 vehicles are shown in the application list. Among them, the Regals. *whew* Another cause of problems? Who knows...

[PaCemkr86]

if the car stops good and your happy with the braking.. leave em alone
im all for having a transbrake.. its guarnteed to give you wheels up lauches you can be proud of.

I currently have my TH400 w/ brake in my ttype but i also have my PTS 200r with a t- brake im going to put back in. " no O/D sucks"

Scott if you have never raced a car with a transbrake you dont know what you are missing. It gives you the neck snappin lauch everytime with wheels in the air.

But you know as well as i do, if you do go with a transbrake,
Your stongest point will only be as good as your weakiest link..

I say go for it !!

http://www.ptsxtreme.com/images%5C../mcartfree/products/images/2004r.jpg

[Keller]

Scott if you have never raced a car with a transbrake you dont know what you are missing.
I haven't. And now that I have more beef out back, it is tempting.

Though I would want to toss more meat in the trans and driveshaft depatments, too. I really don't feel like walking home from the track...

Maybe just a little further down the road. Don't want to correct the current problem by thowing a bigger bomb at it.

[shorti28]

I also had this no boost on launch.. What I believe was the issue all along.... a bad boost gauge. I could not build boost on the line and just happened to switch to autometer guages and Immediatly saw 5 lbs boost on light foot braking. I have the same brake mods as you and this may not be your problem but it was definitly mine. Worth a check!

[Keller]

I do not have no boost on launch. The car starts to spin the wheels when I do build boost on launch. I then have to pull my foot out, and then end up leaving with no boost or at near 0 boost. I assure you, the car has boost just fine. And ~25 PSI through the traps. Having a hell of a time cutting a light, not to mention I have not even come close to getting near my best ET from last season.

Picked up one pair of orgainic shoes. Another pair coming in Sunday so I can use the 'long' shoes from each. I'll swap them on, top off the system and bleed if necesary. Debating trying to get the front metal lines on. Not to mention those new US Brake calipers are already getting a rusty haze on them. Perhaps just dealing with one minor disaster at a time is best. :ow:

If the organics don't do it, I may jump to a trans brake. The rear end is already beefed up. However, some trans parts may need a bit more. I was thinking of waiting until after next season. Missouri just passed a new inspection bill that does away with emissions inspections for pre-1996 vehicles - takes effect September 2007. I still have to go one more time in May 2007. Thought I might step things up after the 2007 season and celebrate the car's 20'th annversary. Perhaps a fresh motor with decent goodies, tranny with some extra beef, turbo to aspirate the animal, and some larger injectors to feed the fire. :drool: Anyway...off topic. :ohyeah:

I have a brake issue. That is the first problem. :halo:

[PaCemkr86]

please go with the transbrake.. You will have major gain in the 60ft with the front wheels in the air.

[Keller]

Well, shoot me some info on 'em.

Meanwhile, I've been going crazy looking at brake shoes. Not sure anyone even makes non metalic shoes anymore. The ones I had come only metallic now. The "organic" ones I purchased look like glitter and are rough to the touch from the metal pieces. The Satisfied ones one the car are too, only darker. Managed to find a set at AutoZone that appear to be non-metallic (by appearance) that I might try. Could get some pics up tonight or tomorrow.

If you know of any shoes that are definitely non-metallic, give me a heads-up.

Meanwhile, 100F+ is a little too hot to race and get a good number, so I'm not even going to bother wrenching...

[Tonka]

From NAPA, the only shoes I've had luck with are part # TS514, the cheapest they sell. I only run two long shoes and could hold up to 15 psi (TE61) on the footbrake. I now have a TE67 on the car and they'll still hold up to 10 psi.

[Survivor87]

Hey, Scott
Just an idea ......can you get that thing to a brake shop with a line pressure guage and see what kind of pressure you're getting to the rear cylinders? Not sure what the numbers need to be but maybe somebody out there knows......I'm just wondering about that proportioning valve.
Steve

[Keller]

The line pressure gauge is a good idea. Not sure what sort of shop would have one, but I'll check into it.

Should have shots of the shoes up shortly.

[Keller]

From NAPA, the only shoes I've had luck with are part # TS514, the cheapest they sell.
These seem to be a non-metallic pad from what I can read on the site. Plus for the price, they likely are.

http://www.napaonline.com/masterpages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=430&CatId=3&SubCatId=1

[Keller]

I've put pictures of my 'shoe collection' up at http://www.gnttype.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6106 Just call me "Imelda Marcos"... :lmao:

Think this merits a page on the site? We could take contributions from others if so. Let me know if the pictures are good enough, or additional detail is warranted.

[kenmosher]

:tup: :tup: :yesnod:

I think that's GREAT info!

[PaCemkr86]

yes, its great info and very worthy

[Tonka]

These seem to be a non-metallic pad from what I can read on the site. Plus for the price, they likely are.

http://www.napaonline.com/masterpages/NOLMaster.aspx?PageId=430&CatId=3&SubCatId=1

I've got an extra set here, I'll see about a pic tomorrow once the camera batteries are recharged.

[Keller]

Note: The trans brake chat has been split off into the "Transmission" area.

"Houston, we have a problem..."

So I go home at a decent hour from work, and got the tail end of the T in the air. Pulled the right rear wheel off, right drum off, and...pretty much what you'd expect for a set of parts with about a thousand miles or less on them. Everything looked great. :tup: I'll swap the pads later.

Went in and had dinner, then hit the other side.

Same game: Wheel. Drum. Black goo. :furious: Not a lot, but enough that it coated the pads, the wear surface of the drum, and a little on some of the brake springs. Took a whiff...didn't really have that hallacious scent of axle lube, but it was that concistency. Way too thick for brake fluid. No sign of leaks from the axle seals. No splatter or signs of it being swung about. Hmm. I called "Electra" Jim for a second opinion, since he's fought a leaking axle seal and a bad bearing in his GN. He has experience with soaked pads. He reasoned it might have been overfilled. Perhaps, but it would have vented out the top first, no? At least I wasn't the one who filled it. That was the builder who installed the recent Moser C-clip eliminator axle setup.

I cleaned out the nasty mess, and built it back up wit the AutoZone "Duralast" non-metallic pads I recently bought. The soaked ones are being held for if the rear end builder needs some evidence at the moment. Left (goo) side went together fine, but snug. The right side had to have the drum beat on with a rubber mallet. I had the adjuster so loose at first that it didn't create enough tension to stay between the pads. Had to give it a fractional nudge just to keep things right. And before I had used the rubber mallet, I'd been tapping with a hammer...and the balance weight fell off. That is in the process of going back on courtesy of JB Weld. :winkgrin: Sorry, no welder handy...

It had been getting worse 60' times from the initials ones I'd had at the Nats. And now I know why. Perhaps my choice of pad wasn't best. But no pad works well when soaked with...well....anything.

If the weather holds, I'll try it again tomorrow.

[Keller]

A pic of the soaked drum.

[Keller]

A pic of the soaked rear left pad. Front left rear pad (i.e. same wheel) was just as bad. At first I wondered if the pads hadn't been overheating and oozing their adhesive since they are bonded and not riveted. The new set are riveted.

[Keller]

I got out to the track Friday night. Was able to get some 1.70 short times. Had little or no break-in time on the pads. They obviously worked a lot better than the oil-soaked (or were they brake-fluid soaked?) set on the one side. Still not thrilled with the short times, but that could be a combination of things. At the very least, the problem was found and solved for the moment.

I've got a new set of Bendix lines coming. I'm going to install those next, and abandon my idea of the braided lines that I was going with. I do have a braided line on the rear axle, and I wonder if that might be restricting flow. If I could find a brake pressure gauge (as was suggested), that might help me find out.

[Keller]

Almost forgot...

Lost that drum weight on the drive over. Heard the *phhtwing* while going down the highway. And when changing my wheels at the track, sure enough it was gone. Not feeling any imbalance. But we'll see...

[Tonka]

Interesting find, don't think I've ever seen a gooey brake shoe.

[James D.]

Are you running c-clip eliminators in this rear.
They are fairly notorious for leaking... sucks because it can be a neccesary upgrade but i've seen lotsa goo-covered-shoes due to c-clip eliminators.

[Keller]

If you see the beginning of the thread, yes. However, they haven't been in but a few months. (since May) And these are the new Moser style that have an extra seal and aren't supposed to leak. Or leak as much, maybe.

[interceptor2]

NOT TO BUTT IN: THE BRAIDED LINES SHOULD ALLOW LESS HOSE EXPANSION AND IMPROVE THE PEDAL FEEL I WOULD PROCEED WITH THEM AND WHEN BRAKING AT GN SPEEDS I HEARD IT HELPS KOOL BRAKE FLUID <IMAGINE THAT>
NOT TO PUNK YOU DOWN WE ARE USING ROLL CONTROL DURING TIRE HEAT UP RIGHT???LOL HEY JUST FOR GIGGLES IVE FOUND THAT I OVER TIGHTENED
SHOES AND OVER HEAT EM AND I HAVE THE SAME JIG IN MY REAR AND FOUND OUT THEY DO WEEP SOME WHAT BUTT IT HAPPENED TWICE TO ME ON BOTH SIDES SO I BACK THEM OFF JUST TO WEAR THE TOUCH BUT I JUST WHAT
TO SHARE SINCE I HAVE NOT DID ANY ONE LEGGER'S LATLEY OR RECHECK I WOULD LIKE TO DO AWAY WITH DIAG SSPLIT BRAKES IDONTNO :ugh:

[Keller]

Went to the track last night. Pulled the drum on the left rear and it was slimed again. Not quite as much, but a little is enough to keep you from having good braking. And good 60' times in a foot-braked car.

*sigh*

The shop that installed the c-clip eliminator setup said they'd stand behind it for 6 months. And that was 5 months ago. Guess its time to pay them a visit...

[Keller]

*Update*

Have the leaking axle at another local shop, because the one that installed the rear end wasn't going to take care of it and it was a 75 mile one-way drive.

This shop has turned a "two day" job into two weeks, so far. Already missed my last track day of the year. May miss a dyno session.

At least one, maybe more, of the four bolt holes in the aluminum block which mounts the bearing already had the threads mostly stripped. So they were working in putting in thread inserts - which took days to get the right ones, apparently. Then, the bearing ended up being .002 too small internally. So it split when pressed on the axle. They called the manufacturer for another and had them measure it first...same problem in their whole inventory. :madder: So they are looking for the right piece. They say they could mill this one out, but that sounds too risky to me. Visions of grit in the bearing, off-center placement, etc. How do you mill out a hardened bearing center?

Anyway, I see several ways it might have been causing the leaks now. Just waiting for a chance to button it up...

[Josh Watson]

A good machine shop could do it. Try contacting a machine shop that isn't automotive.........specs in industrial machines are every bit as tight if not tighter than in automotive apps.

[Survivor87]

Have you tried calling Moser? He might be able to shed some light on what's going on, as well as advise you on the bearing issue. I spoke with him several years ago when I bought some axles and he was very patient and helpful with my questions.
The stripped threads on that bearing support worry me more than anything....

[Keller]

I have Moser pieces on the way. The shop was not using Moser or their sources.

They also suggested that the Heli-coils in the blocks might not be aligned correctly when installed. Have a new one of those on the way as well.

I'll get this beast tamed yet.

[PaCemkr86]

keep us updated . im needing to upgrade my axles .. and kinda worried about going with c clip eliminator setup.

As my mustang goes 1.30 60fts for many years with a mini spool and good axles with factory c clips

[Keller]

The axle is back in. Everything is sealed up with generous amounts of RTV. And a new set of pads are in as well. Took the car out for a ~15 mile test drive yesterday. So far, all seems well.

Comparing the way my axle tubes were modified compared to the Moser instructions, I have a feeling I have been given...well...the short shaft. There is supposed to be 1/4" of tube hanging out for the bearing block to slide over. Mine does not. I would say I don't have much more than 1/8" projecting, and maybe another 1/16" of accessible tube sunk below the backing plate. However, the block only has that 1/8" to sit over. :furious: That might cause leaks. So, I put a thick bead of Permatex grey around the tube end, spread a bit lightly inside the very end of the bearing block, coated the mounting face of the block - avoiding the bolt holes, etc. All bolts were given anti-seize on the tips before insertion, and tourqued adequately. After mounting, the assembly was filleted with RTV to the backing plate. It was left with a heater blowing lightly on it for 12+ hours before any further assembly was undertaken.

Eventually put the pads on, drum on, and wheel on. Man, I hate drum brakes...

On the test drive, I came to a section of road where I was at a red light. Just after the light, the road narrowed from two lanes to one. The other lane had a new Beetle droptop in it. Figured "no problem...I'll beat this little bugger and be first at the next light". Light turned green, and the Beetle jumped quick. I leaned on the loud pedal, and the boost came up. Then...when 2nd gear kicked, the rears just started spinning and making a nasty shriek. Not good for forward motion...or tire wear. Figured I was working way too hard to get pole position at the next intersection, and garnering way too much attention from the umteen cars behind us. I backed off.

At least part of the car is still working right.

Have an afternoon date with the dyno, since I missed last weekend. Car is still in race trim. We'll see what happens...

On the brake focus, I'll tear things open after the dyno session and see if they stay sealed. The right side certainly has. No more racing this year, sadly. I'm pretty happy with the AutoZone Duralast pads so far, and think they should work OK as long as they don't get hit with axle lube again.

I may seriously look into a trans brake for next season.

[PaCemkr86]

glad to hear to you got it fixed up

ps brake pads go on rotors
brake shoes go in drums



Scott i might be selling my fresh built Century stage II 200r4 with transbrake and it has the PTS extra deep pan , with a new WCC converter and g-body parts trans bracket and energy suspesnion mount and SFI trans blanket

[Keller]

Pads...shoes...Think I'm just dizzy from the gear lube fumes... :faint:

[IL KIM]

Glad to hear its running good Scott! I'd be dizzy too, if a bug beat me! :loll: