I have a few non-specific questions???

[kna4977]

1. What modifications does it take to make 375 RWHP?

2. What is the MMT? Why is it bad? Are the recipes for octane booster on the forum using toluene effective and non detrimental? Is there any octane booster that is decent, or is it racing fuel or nothing?

3. The alky kits are $500, couldn't I just run straight racing fuel instead as a cheaper/less permanent alternative for more boost?

4. As my car sits running on pump gas, if I adjust the wastegate another turn or 2 in order to increase boost to 16, will that work in a positive way, or will it still be limited by the octane of the fuel, and/or will it cause serious problems??

5. I took my car out for a few runs this afternoon, and according to the power logger, my 0-60 times were consistently around 6 seconds flat.....shouldn't I be doing better than that?

thanks
__________________
87 GN Spring Cleaning Upgrade + Turbo Tweak Street Chip 15-17 lbs boost, K&N 9" cone, Walbro 340 + Hot Wire, Billet Adjustable Fuel Regulator, Turbo Buick Power Logger

[PaCemkr86]

3. The alky kits are $500, couldn't I just run straight racing fuel instead as a cheaper/less permanent alternative for more boost?


how do you think race fuel costs??? LOL


run as much boost as you can before you go lean or get knock

[Keller]

1. There are many ways to skin a cat.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylcyclopentadienyl_manganese_tricarbonyl
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/mmt_cmts.htm

3. Racing fuel can easily be $8-9 dollars a gallon...or more. You can't turn it off and on. So a gallon or two won't be enough. And a tankful...you do the math. The alcohol kits start to look relatively cheap over time. I was going to work on a small switchable tank for race fuel, but haven't yet.

4. You are always going going to limited by octane. Run too much boost, and you get to learn about changing head gaskets.

5. Don't trust a logging tool to measure time performance. Use something like a G-Tech...or the timing lights at your local track.

[kna4977]

What octane fuel would I need to consistently run 16-17 lbs boost without knock?

Is there an octane booster that will do this??

[kna4977]

3. The alky kits are $500, couldn't I just run straight racing fuel instead as a cheaper/less permanent alternative for more boost?


how do you think race fuel costs??? LOL


run as much boost as you can before you go lean or get knock

Wasn't aware that stuff was so much........I guess it would depend on how much time I spent at the track as to how much it would benefit me......Probably in my 4 visits per year, the alky kit wouldn't be the best investment..........but if I raced every weekend then.......

[kna4977]

[B]

run as much boost as you can before you go lean or get knock

lean........what values would I look for to know it is running lean??

[Keller]

but if I raced every weekend then
...or wanted to play on the street.

[Keller]

what values would I look for to know it is running lean??
The basics never change: http://www.gnttype.org/maint/quickref.html

[Keller]

What octane fuel would I need to consistently run 16-17 lbs boost without knock?

Is there an octane booster that will do this??
With a street chip, 100 octane would be perfect. Could even run more boost. With 104 octane unleaded, could run more boost or use a 104 octane chip if available.

Some of the fuel mixes (i.e. toluene blends) might work OK.

[Keller]

Is there an octane booster that will do this??
RTFM
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html Bottom of the page.
http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/gasoline_faq.txt
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octaneexplained.html

If this is going to become strictly a fuel discussion, let's take it back into the "Fuel" area for the benefit of others.

[PaCemkr86]

i may only go to the track a few times a year.. but when i drive my Buick.. i like to drive it hard.. so therefore i need an "alky system" cause i cant fill my tank with race fuel everyday...

and i do drive the GN everyday.. rain or shine.. and there inst a day it doesnt go full throttle or 'WFO"

[kna4977]

The basics never change: http://www.gnttype.org/maint/quickref.html

True.....I understand that, very familiar with the #'s, but what specifically do I need to focus on? Would I be right to narrow it down to BLM, INT, O2 when trying to discover a lean condition?

[Keller]

O2 is probably always going to be your primary focus. However, BLM, MAF, Knock and other values are always worth keeping an eye on. Its all part of how one becomes (or does not become) adept at tuning.

[kna4977]

RTFM
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html Bottom of the page.
http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/gasoline_faq.txt
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octaneexplained.html

If this is going to become strictly a fuel discussion, let's take it back into the "Fuel" area for the benefit of others.

This discussion may currently be taking a turn toward a focus on fuel, but ultimately the focus is still too much boost for the mods that I have or anyone who has the same basic mods, and everything involved in that, fuel, air, fire, etc.......If you haven't figured out already, my focus for everything is efficiency (getting the most for the least in the safest possible way).........................With that in mind, I just want to drill down some specifics on what we have discussed so far.....This is my take, please correct me where I am wrong............


1. O2 is the primary focus when it comes to lean vs rich

< 0.75 (lean) ----0.78 - 0.82(stoich)----> 0.85 (rich)


2. Octane ultimately determines boost. For pump gas 93 octane or so, 14 or 15 lbs boost is it......................but 100+ octane or so will produce safe 16 or 17 lbs boost for those occasional bursts down the 1/4 mile.


The only questions I have at this point concern #2. If octane determines boost, does it matter how the wastegate regulator is adjusted??????

Also, is there a guideline anywhere that shows how much boost you get for each # increase in octane??......for example, this is just an example, if you go from 92 octane to 93 octane boost increase from 14 to 15???

Also, concerning the first link, how much of this..........

MAKE YOUR OWN OCTANE BOOST
How to make your own octane booster (this is the basic formula of one of the popular octane booster products). To make eight 16 ounce bottles (128 oz = 1 gal):

100 oz of toulene for octane boost
25 oz of mineral spirits (cleaning agent)
3 oz of transmission fluid (lubricating agent)


would you add to what quantity of 93 octane gas to get what amount of octane rating??

[Keller]

1. I prefer to keep things above 0.76, but 0.76-0.80 is about right.

2. The boost depends on timing, too. So you may need to talk to your chip source to see what (roughly) the limits would be.

Its not trivial to determine where these things are. That's why you need boost gauges, knock sensors, etc. Even changes in weather and humidity affect how it all works. So if you are tuning close to the edge (for maximum power), everything has to be taken into account.

There is no "boost/octane" chart that I am aware of, because it depends on too many other things. For example, if you have an aftermarket turbo or less compression, you can run a hair more boost. Less with the stock stuff.

One of the other links (possibly previously provided?) gives more information regarding the mix-to-octane ratio info.[/QUOTE]

[kna4977]

1. I prefer to keep things above 0.76, but 0.76-0.80 is about right.

2. The boost depends on timing, too. So you may need to talk to your chip source to see what (roughly) the limits would be.

Its not trivial to determine where these things are. That's why you need boost gauges, knock sensors, etc. Even changes in weather and humidity affect how it all works. So if you are tuning close to the edge (for maximum power), everything has to be taken into account.

There is no "boost/octane" chart that I am aware of, because it depends on too many other things. For example, if you have an aftermarket turbo or less compression, you can run a hair more boost. Less with the stock stuff.

One of the other links (possibly previously provided?) gives more information regarding the mix-to-octane ratio info.[/QUOTE]

- At WOT my O2 is right at 0.8 - 0.82 I'm at 44 lbs fuel, so maybe I should drop down the fuel just a bit to get 0.78 for optimum performance?? I know my chip was calibrated at 43lbs, and that seems to be where the car likes to run the best

Per Eric at TurboTweak,

"the name of the game is to run the most possible boost with the least knock

I set the chip up to control the wastegate solenoid to provide about 16psi boost. However, with an old actuator, you probably won't see exactly 16psi. An adjustable actuator is preferred so you can tweak it in. The ECM doesn't know what the boost is, so you'll have to adjust it yourself.

You will need to monitor carefully for knock and oxygen sensor readings on a scantool. Keep the knock retard under a 3-4 degrees (zero is preferable). If it knocks, increase fuel, if that doesn't help, then decrease boost.

The chip is pretty much set up to extract as much power as possible in the safest way. Any car can be tweaked a little further with time and plenty of datalogging."

I guess this is the answer to my wastegate actuator question......

[kenmosher]

1. O2 is the primary focus when it comes to lean vs rich

< 0.75 (lean) ----0.78 - 0.82(stoich)----> 0.85 (rich)



No ... 0.440 is stoich ... these are switching style O2s.

0.78-0.82 is around 12:1


2. Octane ultimately determines boost. For pump gas 93 octane or so, 14 or 15 lbs boost is it......................but 100+ octane or so will produce safe 16 or 17 lbs boost for those occasional bursts down the 1/4 mile.

Actually, 100 octane is usually good for up to 20 psi or so (depending on the chip timing and such).


The only questions I have at this point concern #2. If octane determines boost, does it matter how the wastegate regulator is adjusted??????

Well, yes ... that's how you set the boost to the limit of the octane/timing.

Also, is there a guideline anywhere that shows how much boost you get for each # increase in octane??......for example, this is just an example, if you go from 92 octane to 93 octane boost increase from 14 to 15???

It's a balancing act ... gas composition (does it have alcohol in it? MMT?), fuel ratio, chip timing, engine temperature, head work, etc. all enter into it for the individual car. The guidelines given above are good starting points and then you need to monitor and tune to your combo.

Also, concerning the first link, how much of this..........

Personally, I'd just do the good gas. If you read that carefully, it's talking POINTS and not full octane numbers.

[kna4977]

No ... 0.440 is stoich ... these are switching style O2s.

0.78-0.82 is around 12:1




Actually, 100 octane is usually good for up to 20 psi or so (depending on the chip timing and such).




Well, yes ... that's how you set the boost to the limit of the octane/timing.



It's a balancing act ... gas composition (does it have alcohol in it? MMT?), fuel ratio, chip timing, engine temperature, head work, etc. all enter into it for the individual car. The guidelines given above are good starting points and then you need to monitor and tune to your combo.



Personally, I'd just do the good gas. If you read that carefully, it's talking POINTS and not full octane numbers.

Not sure how to quote just a single section of a post, but based on the data on my powerlogger, and I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but the information from the powerlogger indicates that the voltage of the O2 sensor fluctuates which I think is what you mean by "switching style/non-heated O2 sensor", at various RPMs, but when I go WOT, my O2 voltage levels out and becomes consistent right around 0.8 volts.....Sorry if I am way off base.....

Also, what do you mean by points?

[Keller]

Also, what do you mean by points?
As in that 104+ Octane Booster may raise your octane to 93 POINT 5 octane, not to 104 octane.

[kenmosher]

the O2 sensor fluctuates which I think is what you mean by "switching style/non-heated O2 sensor", at various RPMs,

I've got a good description of how an O2 sensor works , but can't post the section easily here due to size and format.

Go to http://www.dashhawk.com, download the PDF Gen II manual and then towards the end of the manual you'll see a discussion of the O2 operation (and a graph with a sine wave on it).

but when I go WOT, my O2 voltage levels out and becomes consistent right around 0.8 volts.....Sorry if I am way off base.....

No, that's how it works (and it sounds like you are pretty safe) ... but that isn't STOICH ... stoich is a rigidly defined chemical/physical property for the oxider/fuel mix (for most gasoline it's about 14.7:1 ... E85 it's about 9.7:1)

At full boost/throttle, the AFR is much richer than stoich for best torque/power (and to act as a coolant in the combustion chamber).

[kna4977]

I've got a good description of how an O2 sensor works , but can't post the section easily here due to size and format.

Go to http://www.dashhawk.com, download the PDF Gen II manual and then towards the end of the manual you'll see a discussion of the O2 operation (and a graph with a sine wave on it).



No, that's how it works (and it sounds like you are pretty safe) ... but that isn't STOICH ... stoich is a rigidly defined chemical/physical property for the oxider/fuel mix (for most gasoline it's about 14.7:1 ... E85 it's about 9.7:1)

At full boost/throttle, the AFR is much richer than stoich for best torque/power (and to act as a coolant in the combustion chamber).

Makes sense for the most part. Not sure what format we are talking about when you say 14.7:1............When should/would STOICH conditions occur??

Makes sense for the most part.

[Keller]

Makes sense for the most part. Not sure what format we are talking about when you say 14.7:1
Air to fuel ratio.

"Stoichiomeric" refers to when things balance in a chemical equation. In the air/fuel relationship, 14.7:1 is where the the ratio is essentially in balance. For a normally aspirated car, that is ideal. For a turbocharged car, it needs to be richer than that under boost in order to make power and not detonate. More like 12:1. Both figures for gasoline, of course.

http://www.miata.net/garage/KnowYourCar/S3_O2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometric#Stoichiometric_air-fuel_ratios_of_common_fuels

[PaCemkr86]

to be safe i set mine at 11.5 a/f .. a little on the rich side.

[kna4977]

Air to fuel ratio.

"Stoichiomeric" refers to when things balance in a chemical equation. In the air/fuel relationship, 14.7:1 is where the the ratio is essentially in balance. For a normally aspirated car, that is ideal. For a turbocharged car, it needs to be richer than that under boost in order to make power and not detonate. More like 12:1. Both figures for gasoline, of course.

http://www.miata.net/garage/KnowYourCar/S3_O2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometric#Stoichiometric_air-fuel_ratios_of_common_fuels

Thanks for the info. How do you measure/know what the relationship is? Can I do this with the powerlogger?

I see PaCemkr has an air/fuel relationship of 11.5:1, how does he know that?

Can you tell the relationship simply by looking at the O2 voltage? From the links it looks like an AFR of 14.7:1 is related to an O2 voltage of 0.45......How do they know this? In other words, for example, if my O2 voltage was 0.80 could I figure my AFR from that??? Is there an equation to help me figure it out??

[Keller]

Thanks for the info. How do you measure/know what the relationship is? Can I do this with the powerlogger?

I see PaCemkr has an air/fuel relationship of 11.5:1, how does he know that?

Take one PowerLogger, add one http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php and voila...

[kna4977]

Take one PowerLogger, add one http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php and voila...

You had to know I would ask....Is there a cheaper alternative to find out the same result?

On the powerlogger, I see it has ECM AFR. I notice it does seem to fluctuate, so I don't think it is defaulting to anything. Will this value be of any benefit and possibly act as a cheaper alternative to the product you mentioned??

[kenmosher]

Not accurately ...

A Wideband by itself will give you these readings ... you need the wideband O2 sensor for accurate readings very far from stoich.

It's all in how the sensor works ...

[Keller]

Is there a cheaper alternative to find out the same result?
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php
Air/fuel ratio all in one package. No other data logging, but it gets you the ratio in one package. Cheaper than the PowerLogger/LC-1.

[383mazda]

Heard a rumor that your EGT's are a good indiction of your A/F ratio? But I don't know what temp = what A/F ratio... I just know as you're getting hotter you'er getting leaner.

And for what it's worth, I use one of those "race plates" in my plenum... with a T-49 and blue tops I could run around with 93 gas with 17~18# without many problems...

[kenmosher]

EGTs can help also with tuning, but they are affected by things such as ignition timing and they tend to be a bit slower to react (due to the fact that you need to thermocouple to stabilize).

EGTs plus WB plus scan data is the best way (unless you can actually see the strategy run in the ECU as well, which is waaay cool during ECU development!)