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View Full Version : good 30 pounders..


buddiiee
12-10-2005, 10:14 PM
hey, im in the market for new injectors, and want to keep it as stock as possible. so heres the deal, how much better do the newer 30 pounders flow, vs the old 28 pound stock ones? not in terms of pound per hour rate, but the quality of spray. dont the new ones have a more efficient spray pattern or something? i thought i read that someplace or another.
please confirm or deny. if they do not in fact, spray any better, than im going to keep with 28 pounders. now, next question, my stock 28's were on this car since 87, so i know they probably arent in the best condition. tell me, if i took em off, and had em professionally cleaned, how much different would they flow, than brand new NOS 28 pounders. are there things like the pintle or whatnot, that wear out, screwing up their flow, even when cleaned? or is an injector an injector.
I have the go ahead to yank my motor so, its upgrade time. and of course the fuel system is the first to get it. how much typically is it to have a set of 6 injectors cleaned and flowed.

buddiiee
12-10-2005, 10:30 PM
One more thing, how are the accels. are they worth a ****? theyre really cheap at summits. :yummy:

kenmosher
12-10-2005, 11:53 PM
There is no significant advantage to the 30 pounders. They are a disc style and thus they may stay a bit cleaner over a long period of time, but other than that ... no real difference.

buddiiee
12-11-2005, 12:28 AM
a disc style versus.....

NOTACARLO
12-11-2005, 02:03 AM
A disk style vs. Pintle (needle/oriface) Lucas 009's (42 pounds) sell for $209 with no need for a driver update to the ECM. I think they are good for high 11's.

PaCemkr86
12-11-2005, 03:37 AM
i perfer the pintel injectors vrs the disk type

buddiiee
12-11-2005, 07:01 AM
why do you prefer the pintle type? isnt the other type a more efficient sprayer?

all i want, is something that flows the SAME pounds per hour, or dam close, but more efficiently thats all. this is the first phase of my experiment. to make it go faster, with the absolute least amount of changes possible. my buddy just got a dyno in his shop, and im currently changing everything back to stock, and starting over. im gonna dyno her stock, then add phases of my modifications, and dyno her each time, to chart the progress.

JHensberry
12-11-2005, 10:15 AM
The little black book out there, The Buick Power Pac - Performance and Restoration has step by step of what they did to double the HP at the rear wheels with bolt on parts and the dyno/HP improvements. They simply gave the car more air/fuel/turbo/intercooler. They used alot of Kenne-Bell parts but Kenne-Bell no longer is involved in the Buick community. Just letting you know to compare to your own findings/build-up.

PaCemkr86
12-11-2005, 11:05 AM
why do you prefer the pintle type? isnt the other type a more efficient sprayer?

all i want, is something that flows the SAME pounds per hour, or dam close, but more efficiently thats all. this is the first phase of my experiment. to make it go faster, with the absolute least amount of changes possible. my buddy just got a dyno in his shop, and im currently changing everything back to stock, and starting over. im gonna dyno her stock, then add phases of my modifications, and dyno her each time, to chart the progress.


this sounds good.
When i was running the MSD 50#'s when i would turn the fuel pressure up over 48# they would stick and sometimes flood out the car. My Motorons never do that.

... i was messing with the fuel pressure looking for the right AFR ratio on the dyno.


Does the dyno your going to have a wide band 02 sensor?

Keller
12-11-2005, 11:30 AM
Pintle injectors spray in a 'cone' pattern, disc injectors spray in a 'stream' or multiple 'streams' (best I can describe is similar to...well...urination) The cone pattern atomizes better. All the Lucas injectors are stream or multi-stream. All the Bosch injectors are cone.

Now this doesn't mean you should not use Lucas injectors. I just put a set of 009 42.5 lb/hr ones in my car. Sometimes they are just the right size tool for the job.

Why not have the stock injectors taken out and cleaned in a professional machine? Then they can be examined for spray patterns, etc. Or...just go with the Lucas 30 lb/hr. They are so close in flow to stock, they are considered equivalent.

kenmosher
12-11-2005, 11:50 AM
Just to add ... what I've seen on the calibration dyno is that the cone type spray usually has a better BSFC (which means more efficiency) ... I say this with a HUGE CAVEAT ...

The angle of injector mounting, manifold design, valve angle, port material/smoothness, etc. all affect this, but as a rule of thumb that's what I've seen.

As far as the 50s, the locking up effect is a side effect of the "ball and seat" injector design. It works well, it's cheap to produce, but they have a much more limited range for operational fuel pressure. This works fine for most OEM applications, since those design parameters are set and don't vary much. For high perf applications, where we all have wide range of ways to use the injector, it can be problematic.

buddiiee
12-11-2005, 08:13 PM
yea, i was going to have my stockers professionally cleaned to see but.. thats why i came here. if you guys were to tell me, for some reason, that the say for example, accel 30 pounders had a more efficient spray pattern than my old ones, i wouldve just bought the accels and been done with it, as they are only 200 dollars ;) why pay for example, 120 dollars to get mine cleaned and flowed, when i could just spend another 80, for a more efficient injector anyways ya know? but what it sounds like to me is, the 30 pounders arent that much better. so im probably going to just clean mine and throw em back in.

buddiiee
12-11-2005, 08:23 PM
I went to the summit catalog, and found this.

Accel Performance fuel injectors provide precise control of fuel delivery and atomization for increased power, improved throttle response, and better fuel economy. Featuring either a high or low-impedance design to function properly with your vehicle's ECU, these injectors utilize a precision-ground, Bosch-style pintle design to produce a wide-angle conical spray pattern for ultra-fine fuel atomization and improved burn efficiency. They come complete and ready for installation with precision-molded O-rings and fine mesh fuel strainers.


is that better than what you guys were saying? these are 195

kenmosher
12-11-2005, 08:33 PM
Sounds like what you have in the stockers ... same thing. Probably a good replacement part, but it doesn't sound like they are different.

buddiiee
12-11-2005, 09:09 PM
yep. though, if it takes say, 20 bux to have each injector cleaned and flowed, im just going to buy the accels instead. ;)

NOTACARLO
12-12-2005, 12:01 AM
It was only a matter of time before someone compared the disk injector to urination....

kenmosher
12-12-2005, 11:08 AM
*he he*

:crackup:

Keller
12-12-2005, 12:12 PM
Might want to see if any of the chip makers consider the Accels to be the same profile-wise as the stock Bosch injectors.

Someone locally was having fueling problems, and I discovered he was running a Lucas 009 42.5 lb/hr chip with Bosch Ford Lightning 42.5 lb/hr injectors, and apparently they just don't have quite the same fuel curves.

The Lucas 30 lb/hr seem to have a very similar curve to the stock Bosch 28 lb/hr. SO whatever the origin of the Accels, you may get lucky. You may not. I'd check first before throwing down the cash.

buddiiee
12-13-2005, 11:29 PM
ahhhh i see. glad you said that ;) so, are there aftermarket chips out there, that will accept those accels? or, do i just tell em im running those, and hell burn it accordingly..

Keller
12-14-2005, 12:03 AM
I have no idea. Perhaps someone else does.

If not, it may take some phone calls...

buddiiee
12-14-2005, 10:45 AM
If you or ken dont know... i cant imagine who will...
though, who upgrades, to pretty much the same injectors that already came with the car.. i dont expect to find a ton of answers in the immediate future. though, mike at modern muscle will know. im sure of it. if not, ill try his former head mechanic..
i just like experimenting. i dont just want to go all the way to the top (88 turbo 120lbs injectors, etc etc.) i wanna go step by step.. and see how much i can do with the minimal amount of shi* on my car. i want to extract more, than any other person with a TR, for under 1500 dollars worth of crap.

kenmosher
12-14-2005, 11:01 AM
Even though the flow rate is the same, Scott makes a great point about the injector will have it's own response curve.

It's call "injector characterization" ... OEM calibrators usually have access to characterizations for sensors and actuators from the manufacturer, but a lot of the aftermarket tuners have to go through the time consuming process to run the sensor/actuator (in this case an injector) through a variety of pulse widths, pressures, temperatures and operating scenarios to derive a response curve, gain, offset, delay times, correction factors, etc. Sometimes this info gets published to the public, but if it isn't an "in demand" part, then it usually isn't.

Once the characterization is established, THEN the aftermarket chip calibrator can translate that into the way the particular ECU uses that data in it's control strategy/tables.

buddiiee
12-15-2005, 01:34 PM
oh... :confused:
i see.. so this is the intel i would need to provide to my would-be chip burner? i could probably have them fax me that data im guessing... im hoping... im sure glad you said that stuff ;)

kenmosher
12-15-2005, 01:38 PM
You could try ... it's not something that is easy to get most of the time and some companies will guard that info closely.

It's always worth asking, but the other side of the coin is to see if the chip burner is interested in doing all the cal work for that injector (unless it's really close to some other injector they have already characterized). They may not be for the $50 they get for a chip, unless it's a popular calibration.

I'd be interested in what you find out ... does Accel have characterizations for all their injectors that they will share with the public?

buddiiee
12-15-2005, 02:51 PM
ahh its a 'closely guarded trade secret' then? why? why would they care. wouldnt it be, that the only way one could duplicate those characteristics, would be to duplicate the injector design verbatim? ahh well..well see. im going to give them a call.

buddiiee
12-15-2005, 03:13 PM
yep, you were right, its closely guarded. but, the guy said, its not that necessary, as the chip burner man, should already have enough info, to burn a chip for that injector, turbo, etc. etc.. good enough for me.

kenmosher
12-15-2005, 04:01 PM
Did you talk to the chip burner? They will be the one to tell you (not the injector sales guy) ...

buddiiee
12-15-2005, 05:27 PM
nope, they dont burn em for the accel 30's. i didnt think so myself. cuz i mean, who, in the buick world would buy those. ya know? he says 'ram' makes those for accel (just got off the phone with full throttle) and he says they suck, and my stockers are actually a tad better lol. well there ya have it. accel 30 pounders suck so dont get em.
See, i told you ken, you shouldn't switch your mototrons out for the accels.. sheesh.
stockers it is. Im glad i went thru all of that. thats 190 bux in my pocket ;)